Comment on Eagle-headed Protective Genie by FalseMaria
Thanks for the warning.
Also it is said that human civilization started in Mesopotamia. Which is probably true if civilization is defined by the amount of cut rock a society leaves behind. I find your fascination for it both intriguing and unsettling. Because you fascination obviously is a very deep one. You live and breathe it, it seems.
heheh..I wouldn't quite put it that strongly.
Its just that I am fascinated by ancient civilisations and their mythology and "Fairytales" (for the want of a better word).How mankind has explained his place within it all..and the creativity that has gone along with it.
Now why do you find my interest in such things to be unsettling?
Its just that I am fascinated by ancient civilisations and their mythology and "Fairytales" (for the want of a better word).How mankind has explained his place within it all..and the creativity that has gone along with it.
Now why do you find my interest in such things to be unsettling?
Btw shepherds LOVE Paganini! 
Actually it's those rocks and what they stand for (enslavement, oppression) that unsettle me. But needless to say that your fascination for them takes the viewer infinitely deeper into the matter than the average tourist brochure does (in fact perhaps your talent for doing so is in itself a bit scary as well). I'm from shepherds (the scum) and we don't think too much about the human agglomerations called cities and the great cultures therein, at least not while they don't come with a degree of justice, which they usually don't. I believe in a cut-rock-less world.
Hmm...I suppose you could look it as enslavement and oppression...or you could look at it as an attempt by these early cultures to try to explain "what its all about".Its Art.
I don't think you can apply modern standards of thinking about freedom and peoples rights to these Ancient cultures.
Here is a sweeping statement...I think all great Art until relatively recently has been built on the back of oppression and enslavement.
Doesn't stop it being awesome...but just cause you appreciate its beauty doesn't mean you condone how it was produced.
Man has always been and always will be mean to his fellow man..if you are not part of the little "chosen" group.We have not evolved to live in huge communities...they recon that living in communities of more than a hundred or so individuals brings out the worst in human nature.
I live in the countryside too..and Nature is way by far the best artist.
Like many artists and musicians , Pagannini was dependent on Royalty and the rich for patronage.
His music is still pretty damn good though.
I don't think you can apply modern standards of thinking about freedom and peoples rights to these Ancient cultures.
Here is a sweeping statement...I think all great Art until relatively recently has been built on the back of oppression and enslavement.
Doesn't stop it being awesome...but just cause you appreciate its beauty doesn't mean you condone how it was produced.
Man has always been and always will be mean to his fellow man..if you are not part of the little "chosen" group.We have not evolved to live in huge communities...they recon that living in communities of more than a hundred or so individuals brings out the worst in human nature.
I live in the countryside too..and Nature is way by far the best artist.
Like many artists and musicians , Pagannini was dependent on Royalty and the rich for patronage.
His music is still pretty damn good though.
You wrote: "I don't think you can apply modern standards of thinking about freedom and peoples rights to these Ancient cultures." In my opinion this is a common misconception. Throughout human history there have always been individuals and groups of individuals who were damn well aware of freedom and their rights. The Frysians or the ancient Hebrews to name some. But that is a very big issue, perhaps better some other time..
I don't think the Egyptian or Assyrian rock carvers saw their work as art. To them creating those things probably was an act of worship, or at most a craft and a great job to have.
Indeed much of what we know as culture, like art and (Western) philosophy and even science, has been devised for no other reason than to confirm the powers that be. That's how the polis works. For disambiguation: the Greek philosophers were "againsters" and weren't part of this, and identifying ancient Greek society with its philosophers is an insult to the latter. I was once told that the mental frame behind Greek philosophy stems from shepherds
I didn't mean to dispute the beauty. Beauty is a very strange thing. An F15 is built to kill and destroy, yet it is beautiful at the same time. The same can of course be said about many a medieval sword. I do definitely see the beauty in itself here. But it also somewhat unsettles me to look at these things, which is what I tried to explain.
I live right on the edge of the town/countryside btw, as I have most of my life. Yes, the country part surely is the nicer one to look at
I don't think the Egyptian or Assyrian rock carvers saw their work as art. To them creating those things probably was an act of worship, or at most a craft and a great job to have.
Indeed much of what we know as culture, like art and (Western) philosophy and even science, has been devised for no other reason than to confirm the powers that be. That's how the polis works. For disambiguation: the Greek philosophers were "againsters" and weren't part of this, and identifying ancient Greek society with its philosophers is an insult to the latter. I was once told that the mental frame behind Greek philosophy stems from shepherds
I didn't mean to dispute the beauty. Beauty is a very strange thing. An F15 is built to kill and destroy, yet it is beautiful at the same time. The same can of course be said about many a medieval sword. I do definitely see the beauty in itself here. But it also somewhat unsettles me to look at these things, which is what I tried to explain.
I live right on the edge of the town/countryside btw, as I have most of my life. Yes, the country part surely is the nicer one to look at
I can't say I know anything about the Frysians.
Were they a Celtic type group?
The Ancient Hebrews ,like all ancient peoples ,kept slaves as well.
As you allude to,Ancient Greece is held up as some kind of lost ancient Democracy which of course it wasn't . Democracy?..tell that to the women and the slaves.
What I was trying to say is that with increasing urbanisation in Ancient times...the Super Powers as it were ..the Assyrians and the Persians and the Egyptians etc..comes increasing shitting on your fellow man.So ,it is "easier" for a more agrarian culture to seem more "fair".But the Art of these Ancient Super Powers is impressive . Where is the Frysian Art?
I do understand what you mean when you say that you find them unsettling though.
Now we get into the discussion about what constitutes Art.
Sure ,these carvings and monuments have a religious basis,but that doesn't mean that it can't be classed as Art.Humans like to create things.Some do it better than others.What makes you think that these masons and carvers didn't get a creative buzz out of what they did? Its only until relatively recently that artists have had a free reign to "do their own thing".Up until this point artists were employed by a rich person...royalty or the Church or the Medicis or some other abuser of power.They kind of had to produce what they were "told to " or what was "acceptable" or face the consequences and starve.
I have lived in both city and countryside. I much prefer the countryside.
Were they a Celtic type group?The Ancient Hebrews ,like all ancient peoples ,kept slaves as well.
As you allude to,Ancient Greece is held up as some kind of lost ancient Democracy which of course it wasn't . Democracy?..tell that to the women and the slaves.
What I was trying to say is that with increasing urbanisation in Ancient times...the Super Powers as it were ..the Assyrians and the Persians and the Egyptians etc..comes increasing shitting on your fellow man.So ,it is "easier" for a more agrarian culture to seem more "fair".But the Art of these Ancient Super Powers is impressive . Where is the Frysian Art?
I do understand what you mean when you say that you find them unsettling though.
Now we get into the discussion about what constitutes Art.
Sure ,these carvings and monuments have a religious basis,but that doesn't mean that it can't be classed as Art.Humans like to create things.Some do it better than others.What makes you think that these masons and carvers didn't get a creative buzz out of what they did? Its only until relatively recently that artists have had a free reign to "do their own thing".Up until this point artists were employed by a rich person...royalty or the Church or the Medicis or some other abuser of power.They kind of had to produce what they were "told to " or what was "acceptable" or face the consequences and starve.
I have lived in both city and countryside. I much prefer the countryside.
The Frysians (or Frisians says Wikipedia) were a West Germanic tribe. West Germanic tribes consisted of free farmers, who were equals. Unlike the East Germans, they didn't have kings. They had a great sense of freedom and democracy while the Romans were still roaming around in NW Eu. Democracy?? Yes, in times of war they elected a leader, or duke, who after the war would go back to becoming a peer amongst peers once again. And indeed, here comes the catch: all free farmers had a right to to vote, and all had an equal vote. This did not include however (you probably guessed it) the women and the serfs. Much like in Athens: all citizens have the right to vote, but (by far) not all inhabitants of the city are considered citizens.
Everything is relative.
I don't know about Hebrew slaves other than from the story about Ismaels mom. I've never heard about Great Hebrew Conquests and mass captivations though.
Side note: unlike what some want us to believe, ancient slavery had nothing to do with that from the European slave trade. There is no comparison. Apart from the free ride in terms of workforce, in the ancient world enslavement was a means to uproot vanquished peoples from their homeland and to make them and their offspring loyal to their new masters. A kind of forced integration. However they were still considered humans and had rights, if limited ones. In many cases they could buy themselves free, or their children would automatically become fully-fledged members of the winners' society. The Africans dragged off to the Americas weren't considered human and as such had no rights at all. Murdering an African slave wasn't considered a crime and was met with no punishment other than the obligation to compensate the slave's master for his material loss. Did you know that in the 1600s an Irish slave in the West Indies was much cheaper than an African one? ( [link] - a chilling document, that one). Anyway, in ancient times it would depend upon the oppressing society in question and the kind of work one had to do how bad it was. I guess that working in a marble quarry would have worse than serving a Roman senator. In all cases there would have been the aspect of humiliation and subduction involved, which would't have been much fun.
You have a point about the creative buzz. Interesting question. I guess at least they would have looked at it with great pride once the work was finished. Yes, highly organized and pyramidally structured societies can achieve things others can't. Too bad perhaps they dig their own graves in doing so.
I don't know about Frysian art. It would look somewhat like Anglo-Saxon art I guess, which is by all means very pretty. Or perhaps they were just too busy not being oppressed by some bastard monarch to be bothered with it. Frysians and Saxons (the "Brethren of the Sword") are arch enemies btw. They still live next to each other here in Holland, and hate each other with a passion!
I don't know much about art history, I'm afraid. I think I find cave art the most fascinating of all art forms.
Everything is relative.
I don't know about Hebrew slaves other than from the story about Ismaels mom. I've never heard about Great Hebrew Conquests and mass captivations though.
Side note: unlike what some want us to believe, ancient slavery had nothing to do with that from the European slave trade. There is no comparison. Apart from the free ride in terms of workforce, in the ancient world enslavement was a means to uproot vanquished peoples from their homeland and to make them and their offspring loyal to their new masters. A kind of forced integration. However they were still considered humans and had rights, if limited ones. In many cases they could buy themselves free, or their children would automatically become fully-fledged members of the winners' society. The Africans dragged off to the Americas weren't considered human and as such had no rights at all. Murdering an African slave wasn't considered a crime and was met with no punishment other than the obligation to compensate the slave's master for his material loss. Did you know that in the 1600s an Irish slave in the West Indies was much cheaper than an African one? ( [link] - a chilling document, that one). Anyway, in ancient times it would depend upon the oppressing society in question and the kind of work one had to do how bad it was. I guess that working in a marble quarry would have worse than serving a Roman senator. In all cases there would have been the aspect of humiliation and subduction involved, which would't have been much fun.
You have a point about the creative buzz. Interesting question. I guess at least they would have looked at it with great pride once the work was finished. Yes, highly organized and pyramidally structured societies can achieve things others can't. Too bad perhaps they dig their own graves in doing so.
I don't know about Frysian art. It would look somewhat like Anglo-Saxon art I guess, which is by all means very pretty. Or perhaps they were just too busy not being oppressed by some bastard monarch to be bothered with it. Frysians and Saxons (the "Brethren of the Sword") are arch enemies btw. They still live next to each other here in Holland, and hate each other with a passion!
I don't know much about art history, I'm afraid. I think I find cave art the most fascinating of all art forms.
View all replies
[continued] Or the people of the South of France, who were brutally subdued by the Parisians after the latter had decided that the Provence best be made part of the French territory. In my opinion it would be a posthumous insult to those murdered to state that one cannot apply modern standards of thinking about freedom and peoples rights to what the Parisians did. A crime is a crime is a crime.
Note that this story is surrounded by another misconception, namely that the Church declared the people of the South heretics and hired the Parisians to fight them. It was exactly the other way around. In this and many such cases, including the witch hunts during the "Renaissance", the Church has been reluctant to go along, at least initially (i.e. before the "difficult" bishops had been replaced). And the Church has apologized for it in the person of Pope John Paul II, but I don't think the Parisians have yet. I am not a believer, but I do believe in giving credit to who deserves it.
Note that this story is surrounded by another misconception, namely that the Church declared the people of the South heretics and hired the Parisians to fight them. It was exactly the other way around. In this and many such cases, including the witch hunts during the "Renaissance", the Church has been reluctant to go along, at least initially (i.e. before the "difficult" bishops had been replaced). And the Church has apologized for it in the person of Pope John Paul II, but I don't think the Parisians have yet. I am not a believer, but I do believe in giving credit to who deserves it.