Comment on Set Chibi com.: kittykatkanie by Red-Birdie
Cute cute chibis. But why is Celegorm blond?
^^ Thank you
You mean he's not blond? 
(has not read the book)
You mean he's not blond? (has not read the book)Well, I say he's not blond, because when Tolkien uses the word "fair" he refers to handsomeness/beautifulness. But there's people reply to me with other theories (check them if you want). I should find the cite!
XD Is that so
Because it's a popular fan theory. All we know is he's hair was fair (as mentioned in HoME), and as there's no direct evidence against it being blond, many assume so. A growing theory is it's actually silvery, like Míriel's.
And I've begin to like to think it's actually a very light shade of red.
And I've begin to like to think it's actually a very light shade of red.
Actually, the most plausible hair color for him is dark, just as his brothers and father, it's simple genetics. I don't think he has copper hair because it would be stated as a special feature of him, just as in Maedhros and the twins. Also it doesn't state that his hair was fair, it says that he was fair, meaning he was handsome, Tolkien uses this word over and over again to point at handsome and beautiful people. I'll try to found the cite in case I misread (I don't remember if I have the english or the spanish version of that book; if it's in spanish there's room for mistranslation).
See you.
See you.
The reason I think his hair could be fair is that Míriel had silver hair. He might have inherited it from her.
Yes, I agree with you, according to genetic laws he couldn't, even because not only Feanor but also Nerdanel should have the allele for blond hair (since it's recessive). But I don't think Tolkien worried too much about genetics (even Finarfin shouldn't be blond, unless Finwe had Vanyarin blood.
"Fair" is misunderstandable, and I suppose it has been translate in many different ways in other languages.
I think that many artists prefer to draw him with blond hair so that they can differentiate him better from the other black haired brothers
(that's what I did, even if sincerely at the beginning I wanted to give him dark hair). Since the color is not "determined" I think it's not so wrong to choose the color of preference
"Fair" is misunderstandable, and I suppose it has been translate in many different ways in other languages.
I think that many artists prefer to draw him with blond hair so that they can differentiate him better from the other black haired brothers
(that's what I did, even if sincerely at the beginning I wanted to give him dark hair). Since the color is not "determined" I think it's not so wrong to choose the color of preference 
But the thing is - fair doesn't only have to refer to blonde hair. It could also refer to a light brown or light red, both of are stated to be colors some of his brothers have.
And if silver hair was recessive, then it's entirely possible for Celegorm to end up with a silverish shade. Feanor would have to have one recessive gene for silver hair from his mother, and Nerdanel has to have a recessive gene for red. If silver and blonde are as recessive as each other, if Feanor passed his sliver gene to Celegorm, and Nerdanel passed a red gene, then it could just be a light shade of silver or red.
It's Tolkien's works though, and really, if he says fair or gleaming hair, it doesn't matter what the genetics are, his character has it.
And if silver hair was recessive, then it's entirely possible for Celegorm to end up with a silverish shade. Feanor would have to have one recessive gene for silver hair from his mother, and Nerdanel has to have a recessive gene for red. If silver and blonde are as recessive as each other, if Feanor passed his sliver gene to Celegorm, and Nerdanel passed a red gene, then it could just be a light shade of silver or red.
It's Tolkien's works though, and really, if he says fair or gleaming hair, it doesn't matter what the genetics are, his character has it.
Since the original comment was about blond hair I was referring about the possibilities he has blond hair, not simply light colored. Yes, you're right about the light hair.
The logical possibilies should be two: he has light colored hair if compared with his brothers or he was particularly beautiful.
Anyway, it's a novel and not a science book so I agree, if it's said that a character has a particular character he has it, there's no need to worry too much about that. And I must say that I've seen so beautiful images of Celegorm with golden hair that I'm happy those artist chose to represent him like that
Yes, you're right about the light hair. The logical possibilies should be two: he has light colored hair if compared with his brothers or he was particularly beautiful.
Anyway, it's a novel and not a science book so I agree, if it's said that a character has a particular character he has it, there's no need to worry too much about that
. And I must say that I've seen so beautiful images of Celegorm with golden hair that I'm happy those artist chose to represent him like that Sorry, one of my worst habits is to jump in and go off on tangents....
There's one pic of Celegorm with silver hair that is beautiful, though I can't remember where it is at the moment...all of the golden haired ones are very nice too, though.
There's one pic of Celegorm with silver hair that is beautiful, though I can't remember where it is at the moment...all of the golden haired ones are very nice too, though.
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I don't think the genetics of it are really that simple - Feanor's mother had silver hair (which would be fair) and therefore there's a fifty/fifty chance that Celegorm inherited a fair gene from his father. Other then that, Feanoriel sums up my thoughts perfectly, and fair does not mean blonde...it means light colored. A light brown or red would qualify as fair, as would silver...and I know the line he is talking about, though I unfortunately do not have the book right with me, though I might be able to copy the line tomorrow.
Can you copy the line where it syas about Míriel's silver hair? That's new to me! (or at least I don't remember having read it).
Oh yes! Let me find it real fast...
Miriel was the name of his mother. Silver was her hair and dark were her eyes, but her hands were more suited to fineness than any hands even of the Noldor.
~ Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion: (I) The First Phase: 6. Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor" p. 185
Also, the quote Moryo is referring to is this:
"But up there starts amid the throng, and loudly cries for hearing, one with flaming eyes, proud Celegorm with gleaming hair and shining sword. Then all men stare upon his stern unyielding face, and a great hush falls upon that place."
~The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian, Canto VI
Also, in The Shaping of Middle Earth, Celegorm's Old English name is stated to be Cynegrim Fægerfeax, which means Cynegrim the Fair-Haired. So at some point at least, Tolkien wrote Celegorm's hair as being fair, but I would say he was more likely to have a fair shade of silver, light red, or light brown, then the blonde normally depicted.
Miriel was the name of his mother. Silver was her hair and dark were her eyes, but her hands were more suited to fineness than any hands even of the Noldor.
~ Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion: (I) The First Phase: 6. Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor" p. 185
Also, the quote Moryo is referring to is this:
"But up there starts amid the throng, and loudly cries for hearing, one with flaming eyes, proud Celegorm with gleaming hair and shining sword. Then all men stare upon his stern unyielding face, and a great hush falls upon that place."
~The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian, Canto VI
Also, in The Shaping of Middle Earth, Celegorm's Old English name is stated to be Cynegrim Fægerfeax, which means Cynegrim the Fair-Haired. So at some point at least, Tolkien wrote Celegorm's hair as being fair, but I would say he was more likely to have a fair shade of silver, light red, or light brown, then the blonde normally depicted.
Thanks for the quotes.
You're welcome! If you ever need anymore, just send me a note or something, I can normally get them.
If you ever need anymore, just send me a note or something, I can normally get them.View all replies
Hi hi, sorry to butt in, but since I was the one who asked this artist to draw them in my designs, I think I should explain about Celegorm's hair color.
I'm Japanese, and I happen to read the translated version of Silmarillion (as well as the English one) here, and the translation is sort of bizarre. Like you mentioned, I can totally understand how "fair" =/= blond; i'm sure it can refer to as having good looks.
However, the person who translated into Japanese happen to write "Celegorm the fair" as "金髪のケレゴルム", which literally means Celegorm the "golden hair"... so I guess I was greatly influenced by this, and the idea that Celegorm has golden hair got attached in my input. 
In addition, just to let you know, the translated name for "Caranthir the dark" is "黒髪のカランシア”, which is.... Caranthir with "black hair".
I don't know why the person translated this way (I find it weird too.)
Hope it clears things a bit about "why Celegorm's hair is golden in this pic"
I'm Japanese, and I happen to read the translated version of Silmarillion (as well as the English one) here, and the translation is sort of bizarre. Like you mentioned, I can totally understand how "fair" =/= blond; i'm sure it can refer to as having good looks.
However, the person who translated into Japanese happen to write "Celegorm the fair" as "金髪のケレゴルム", which literally means Celegorm the "golden hair"... so I guess I was greatly influenced by this, and the idea that Celegorm has golden hair got attached in my input. In addition, just to let you know, the translated name for "Caranthir the dark" is "黒髪のカランシア”, which is.... Caranthir with "black hair".
I don't know why the person translated this way (I find it weird too.)
Hope it clears things a bit about "why Celegorm's hair is golden in this pic"
Haha, yeah, translations can be tricky. In spanish, the well-known poem about Aragorn that says "All that is gold does not glitter" was translated as "All that glitters is not gold", huge change of meaning.
Wow, really? That really changes.... I guess it's best to be kept in English 
Yeah, all literature is best in his own language, but, what can we do, we don't master all languages U_U
No, there should be a line in the verse verion of Lay of Leithian where it's said his fair hair was gleaming etc etc... Unfortunately I've never read the line myself (I haven't had the change to read all of the HoME books) but I believe what others have read.
I didn't mean his hair would be copper red. I ment it would be a very light shade of brownish/reddish. The concept of colour is culture relevant, and the same genes that produced the brownish/reddish hair in Mahtan's lineage could potentially manifest in different shades of brownish/reddish. These different shades caused by the same genes would be considered as different colours by the Elves, the same way some human cultures don't make difference between green and blue, and other have way more basic colours than we do. Remember Mahtan is described as a red head, Nerdanel was apparently a brunette, Maedhros had copper reddish brown hair, Amrod had darker brown hair with possibly some red left in it, and Amras was a red head. And yet they all had the same "red head" gene.
I didn't mean his hair would be copper red. I ment it would be a very light shade of brownish/reddish. The concept of colour is culture relevant, and the same genes that produced the brownish/reddish hair in Mahtan's lineage could potentially manifest in different shades of brownish/reddish. These different shades caused by the same genes would be considered as different colours by the Elves, the same way some human cultures don't make difference between green and blue, and other have way more basic colours than we do. Remember Mahtan is described as a red head, Nerdanel was apparently a brunette, Maedhros had copper reddish brown hair, Amrod had darker brown hair with possibly some red left in it, and Amras was a red head. And yet they all had the same "red head" gene.
I know the line you're talking about Moryo...I don't have Lays in front of me, but I might be able to get a copy of the relevant section tomorrow....
Cool! Please cite the whole line, it'd be very interesting.
Hey, Moryo, did you see the cite, or do you want me to copy it down here?
I cited it - it's up at bit, under where I was asked to quote the line about Miriel's hair. I also included some about how Tolkien translated Celegorm's Old English name, which gives more weight to him being fair-haired.
I also included some about how Tolkien translated Celegorm's Old English name, which gives more weight to him being fair-haired. Oh Eru, I wrote "his" as "he's". Next I'll write "your" as "you're"...