Celestia may control a strong amount of magic, but that does not make her a goddess. Magical is not synonymous with divine. If she is not explicitly stated in the series as a goddess (which she is not), then she is not -- plain and simple. However, I find it a matter of consequence that you would somehow disagree with that reasonable point, and so I will have to go through the rounds of explaining a "god." The divine is not necessarily metaphysical -- it is not required. Most "gods" in mythologies are really nothing more than extremely powerful spirits, and that is to say they are spirits. As spirits, they are immortal and contain divine, or spiritual, power (i.e. magic). Let me provide the denotation of "immortal" so you do not merely think it means "live forever;" immortal translates from Latin into English as "deathless." An immortal spirit cannot die because their true nature is in spirit and not in flesh. They may lose their physical body, but they are not restrained and can gain it back.
When I stated that Hylia was a confirmed goddess and Celestia was implied, it was very literal and factual. Are you trying to say facts are wrong? If Celestia is not implied, then where do they explicitly state "Celestia is a goddess"? They don't. Any idea of divinity can only be implied with Celestia because it is certainly not stated outright. Honestly, it's as if you were trying to argue against the sky being blue: it is blue, that is a fact. Hylia is a confirmed goddess, that is a fact. Celestia is not a confirmed goddess, that is a fact. Celestia as a goddess is an unconfirmed implication. If this is honestly one of your points, then maybe the rest of this argument is a pointless waste of my time, but I will continue simply to straighten the record.
I did not make up Shining Armor's rank -- the show creators did that. Perhaps you need to re-watch the last two episodes of season 2 when Shining Armor is introduced into the series as the captain of the royal guard. Again you are trying to pass facts off as untrue, and I could end this argument here, but I shall indulge further.
Armor has an undefined ability with telekinesis. Good for him. Oh, and a presumed ability in defensive magic. Presumed, but not definite. Given that Armor can create magical shield barriers and Link can destroy magical shield barriers, I am not too concerned with Link being trapped within a magical shield barrier created by a unicorn who is almost rendered useless by using such magic (his serious head aches which are only eased by magic). With his "hunk of metal," Link can break the barrier as he did to the one around Hyrule Castle.
Actually, the Master Sword is not a hunk piece of metal: it is a sword forged by divine fires (Skyward Sword). The Master Sword can destroy magical barriers (Wind Waker), unleash "sword beam" attacks (skyward strike, etc.) and is also resistant to magic and capable of deflecting magical attacks, such as what Shining Armor might use. Since Shining Armor is "lawful good" and the Master Sword is the Blade of Evil's Bane which Sparkles with the Power to Repel Evil, any magic Shining Armor -- or even Celestia for that matter -- would use against it would be utterly useless by default. Light magic cannot work against that which is truly pure. When Zelda was possessed by Ganondorf, Link was able to deflect her light based magic attacks back at her with the Master Sword. You might argue that Zelda was just that: possessed, but the nature of her attacks were not dark, but still light -- this provides the case that Link is capable of using the Master Sword against a "lawful good" combatant (just one of his many abilities).
Link's advantages are numerous beyond your cliché and typical characteristics listing. He has a plethora of items to use in his inventory ranging from magical arrows, hookshots and grappling extensions, to magic spells and more. He also has a variety of shields, many of which can deflect magic, different types of armor and even the Triforce of Courage, marking him as a chosen one of the gods (the golden ones, if you will).
The titles "hero of time" and "hero of the winds" are actually not as exclusive as you are prone to think. In Skyward Sword, an important thing happened that essentially changed every pre-existing Zelda game: Link, Zelda and Ganon's spirits became eternal reincarnations. Ganon is the reincarnation of Demise (his hatred is the word he used in the game), Zelda is the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia and Link is the reincarnation of the Chosen Hero of the Goddess. Although the bodies bear the titles exclusively, they are all attributed solely to Link's eternal spirit. The Hero of the Winds was also the Hero of Time. Every evil slain by Link was slain by all Links because they were all the reincarnation of the Chosen Hero of the Goddess. Every feat and title earned by Link was earned by the Chosen Hero of the Goddess, universally.
Given this, it still comes down to the fact that Link is the Chosen Hero of the Goddess wielding divine power and authority, whereas Shining Armor is a magic-using unicorn who serves as the Captain of the Royal Guard of Princess Celestia.
OK, let's pick this apart:
"Magical is not synonymous with divine"
This is context-sensitive, and it depends on the series in question. For most forms of pony magic, its true
"If she is not explicitly stated in the series as a goddess (which she is not), then she is not -- plain and simple."
No.
This is context-sensitive, and it depends on the series in question. For most forms of pony magic, its true
"If she is not explicitly stated in the series as a goddess (which she is not), then she is not -- plain and simple."
No.
Celestia is the immortal ruler of a planet-spanning nation and the single controller of the sun itself. While it is true that mortal unicorns can move the sun, it takes THOUSANDS of them. Celestia is explicitly treated as a deity by her subjects and the narrative structure of the show alike. She may not be explicitly stated to be a goddess, but she fulfills that niche/trope of the fantastical structure of Equestria's backstory. If MLP:FiM followed a "Hero's Journey" style of plot, Celestia would be the Goddess in the "Meeting with the Goddess" stage
"Any idea of divinity can only be implied with Celestia because it is certainly not stated outright."
This is intentional on Celestia's part. She wants her subjects to have free will, as opposed to autonomous lives as the puppets of a higher will. Just because she doesn't exercise her divinity doesn't mean she doesn't have it.
This is intentional on Celestia's part. She wants her subjects to have free will, as opposed to autonomous lives as the puppets of a higher will. Just because she doesn't exercise her divinity doesn't mean she doesn't have it.
"Celestia is not a confirmed goddess, that is a fact."
She is also not confirmed to be a mortal. It's a catch-22, an impasse, and one that's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of whether or not Shining Armor is a match for Link.
She is also not confirmed to be a mortal. It's a catch-22, an impasse, and one that's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of whether or not Shining Armor is a match for Link.
The train of logic that you use to claim that Celestia ISN'T a goddess is restrictive and self-defeating. You might as well try to convince me that Link is secretly a woman because his penis has never been shown on-screen.
Onto the combatants:
"I did not make up Shining Armor's rank -- the show creators did that."
What is this paragraph referring to? I didn't say anything false; Shining Armor is the Captain of Celestia's personal praetorian guard (I'm using "praetorian" as a generic noun here). There is no train of logic that would contradict that Armor is Celestia's chosen leader of her chosen praetorians.
What is this paragraph referring to? I didn't say anything false; Shining Armor is the Captain of Celestia's personal praetorian guard (I'm using "praetorian" as a generic noun here). There is no train of logic that would contradict that Armor is Celestia's chosen leader of her chosen praetorians.
"Again you are trying to pass facts off as untrue, and I could end this argument here"
How?! What did I say that was false?!
How?! What did I say that was false?!
I was claiming that you made up the rank "Divine Guard", not "Captain of the Royal Guard". That's obviously what Shining Armor is and has always been
"Oh, and a presumed ability in defensive magic. Presumed, but not definite."
No, it IS definite. He creates shields. Shields made of magic. He puts those shields where he wants to put them. That's canon. Defensive magic. Q.E.D.
"Oh, and a presumed ability in defensive magic. Presumed, but not definite."
No, it IS definite. He creates shields. Shields made of magic. He puts those shields where he wants to put them. That's canon. Defensive magic. Q.E.D.
"Actually, the Master Sword is not a hunk piece of metal"
I didn't say that it was a hunk of metal, or at least that's not what I meant to imply (for that, I apologize). I was referring to the fact that, against a fellow good being, and ability to disrupt and instantly destroy evil beings is functionally useless and irrelevant. To Shining Armor's flesh, it will simply feel like a hunk of sharp metal
I didn't say that it was a hunk of metal, or at least that's not what I meant to imply (for that, I apologize). I was referring to the fact that, against a fellow good being, and ability to disrupt and instantly destroy evil beings is functionally useless and irrelevant. To Shining Armor's flesh, it will simply feel like a hunk of sharp metal
"Since Shining Armor is "lawful good" and the Master Sword is the Blade of Evil's Bane which Sparkles with the Power to Repel Evil, any magic Shining Armor -- or even Celestia for that matter -- would use against it would be utterly useless by default. Light magic cannot work against that which is truly pure. "
I fail to see how Shining Armor's magic would be useless. Armor's magic is not of the same class as Link's magic or the sword's magic. It is a functional magic, drawn from what appears to be the pony's own inner being, rather than strictly holy magic bestowed by divine right. Furthermore, using your logic, I could just as easily argue that Link's magic is useless against Shining Armor.
I fail to see how Shining Armor's magic would be useless. Armor's magic is not of the same class as Link's magic or the sword's magic. It is a functional magic, drawn from what appears to be the pony's own inner being, rather than strictly holy magic bestowed by divine right. Furthermore, using your logic, I could just as easily argue that Link's magic is useless against Shining Armor.
"When Zelda was possessed by Ganondorf, Link was able to deflect her light based magic attacks back at her with the Master Sword. You might argue that Zelda was just that: possessed, but the nature of her attacks were not dark, but still light"
Those same blasts of magic are then re-deflected by Zelda's BARE HANDS. And yes, I realize Zelda's hands were probably sheathed in more magic, which just proves this next point: that the Master Sword's ability to deflect magic is not because of its divine connection to the holy goddesses, but because that's how Hyrulian magic works. Magic deflects other magic, regardless of alignment.
Those same blasts of magic are then re-deflected by Zelda's BARE HANDS. And yes, I realize Zelda's hands were probably sheathed in more magic, which just proves this next point: that the Master Sword's ability to deflect magic is not because of its divine connection to the holy goddesses, but because that's how Hyrulian magic works. Magic deflects other magic, regardless of alignment.
"The titles "hero of time" and "hero of the winds" are actually not as exclusive as you are prone to think"
Unless the remainder of this paragraph is dedicated to singing the praises of Wind Waker and how it's superior in every way to Ocarina of Time, I don't exactly care. And it's irrelevant to the actual battle with Shining Armor regardless
Unless the remainder of this paragraph is dedicated to singing the praises of Wind Waker and how it's superior in every way to Ocarina of Time, I don't exactly care. And it's irrelevant to the actual battle with Shining Armor regardless
"Link's advantages are numerous beyond your cliché and typical characteristics listing. He has a plethora of items to use in his inventory ranging from magical arrows, hookshots and grappling extensions, to magic spells and more."
I have reason to assume that Shining's arsenal would be just as varied, given that he is a military officer with access to an armory.
I have reason to assume that Shining's arsenal would be just as varied, given that he is a military officer with access to an armory.
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