Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
As I said in this comment here --> [link] it is the fact that our society is so divorced from our food that people view sacrifices as evil when they are not. I was raised with quite a mixed bag of things: My mother is Southern Baptist and she also raised me with our Cheyenne heritage beliefs, my parents took me to Black Powder Rendezvous and I grew up going to Pow Wows. We had friends who had working animals such as horses, dogs, and cats, as well as food animals like cattle, chickens, and rabbits. I knew very well where my food came from and how it gets from the pasture to the table, every stage of it. As an adult I got into Midieval Recreationism and while at a demonstration event, I was utterly shocked to see a 10 year old girl standing there with a horror stricken look on her face when she was told (by someone in character) that the meat being prepared came from a cow that was no longer able to produce milk. **facepalms** It was then that I realized how blindly segrigated from our food sources we have become as a society, slowly brainwashed into obedient unthinking sheep following what authority figures tell us and forbidding us anything that is not on their "approved list".

Offerings are things we give that are part of daily life, such as a plate of food, a poem or prayer we wrote, incense, stones, and similar items. Sacrifices are things we give that come at a cost to us, such as money or an animal. Offerings and sacrifices are both equally important and both must be carefully prepared and kept sacred for their intended purpose. An animal sacrifice in my mind is where a cherished animal, usually a prized and well cared for food animal, is gently taken, prepared in ritual, quickly and cleanly killed, its blood gathered in a special vessel and placed upon an altar for the ritual, then its meat carved and cooked carefully and with deep prayer for a ritual feast, then its hide is specially tended and tanned for ritual purposes (from use as an altar covering to being made into ritual garb, medicine bundles and shields, and other sacred items), and the bones carved and made into ritual tools and fetish items. Thus unlike a general food animal killed for every day purpose, the sacrificial animal is exceptionally well cared for, protected from injury, illness, and parasites, and kept as clean and well tended as possible for the life of the animal to keep it pure and suitable for the sacrifice. This was done in biblical times as well as long before Christianity came into being, and it is the right and proper way to do it.

Now that is not to say that other animals are not well cared for, only that the intended sacrifice is given extra special care to keep it as clean and pure as possible, literally over and above what we do for our so very important food animals and our beloved companion animals, or even for ourselves. The word sacrifice should not be treated as a dirty word, but treated as it should be, a word for a sacred act that is over and above our daily or weekly offerings.
asleeplikewolves's avatar
Offerings are things we give that are part of daily life, such as a plate of food, a poem or prayer we wrote, incense, stones, and similar items. Sacrifices are things we give that come at a cost to us, such as money or an animal. Offerings and sacrifices are both equally important and both must be carefully prepared and kept sacred for their intended purpose. </block>

Yay! I think we're coming from the exact same place. I've actually really been wanting to learn to hunt lately since I'm surrounded by such a strong hunting culture. I agree that if you are raising food, the sacrificial animal is chosen at birth and raised just a little more attentively than the other animals. But I also believe that a wild animal personally hunted is just as acceptable. Of course, I further believe that the method should be a bow and arrows, but that's a personal picky detail... I think if I could learn to hunt eventually, my own relationship with my Gods would be greatly increased in power and closeness.

I also just have a huge problem with eating meat and not hunting it or raising it. I don't have the facilities to raise my own, but it is something I would like to be able to do in the future. I do at least still visit farmer's markets for meat first, and I said somewhere else in these comments that even at my church, the eggs we eat are from chickens raised on the same ground upon which we worship.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
A hunted animal is not a sufficient sacrifice because even though you went out and hunted it yourself, it is not an absolutely perfect animal you raised with extra care yourself and maintained a personal relationship with during its life. It is only permissible as an offering at best for that very reason. However, bow hunting is the only type of hunting I would do myself, not only reflecting back to my Cheyenne heritage, but also to truly honor the animal, making it a true struggle between yourself and the animal over who will survive the hunt and thus granting you only that which is chosen for you to take by the spirits, a gift of life to be honored. Some Native American tribes go so far as to offer a prayer of thanks to the spirit of the animal they just killed, even offering it a drink of water directly into the animal's mouth in thanks for its flesh given to sustain the hunter and his family.

I like what your church has chosen to do, and I commend them for the time and effort they put into the animals they ultimately use for food or sacrifice. **smiles**
asleeplikewolves's avatar
Well, we disagree about the wild animals. There is nothing in the mythology of my Gods that suggests a hunted animal is insufficient.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
No, a true sacrifice must be without blemish, disease, or parasites, thus a hunted animal is not sufficient as a true sacrifice because you can not confirm or guarantee that the animal is without blemish. Wild deer have serious bone marrow problems (this has been verified by Fish and Game), thus they bear a blemish that makes them unsuitable for true sacrifice. If you are going to sacrifice an animal, it must be perfect and without blemish and take a lot of time, effort, and care on your part to raise and ensure that the animal is pristine and perfect. You can not do such with wild hunted animals. It also must be a sacrifice on your part, not just the animal to be sacrificed. A sacrifice must be of oneself, thus an animal you hand raised and got close to is a personal sacrifice because of the bond you share with the animal. Going out and hunting a wild animal takes no true sacrifice on your part because you have no personal relationship with the wild animal. Thus another reason it is not appropriate or sufficient for a true sacrifice.
asleeplikewolves's avatar
Yes, I understood your opinion the first time you explained, but I disagree and find no such obligation in the mythology that informs my religion.

No animal whatsoever exists without blemish. That is not the way of nature. Even a "perfect" calf can become "imperfect" if you don't time perfectly when they switch from milk to grass or from grass to feed. Animals can be born with defects that don't manifest until adulthood. Pristine, perfect animals are a fantasy, and an absurd one at that. The closest that could possibly come to such a definition are mice and rats kept in sterile conditions from the time they were embryos, with no immune systems, no contact with real air or sunlight. That is not a natural animal, but it is as close to a perfect one as can exist. I would never dream of giving such a creature to a God.

Hunting also takes enormous personal sacrifice, especially when using a bow. It might not be the months it takes to raise a calf or a kid to a cow or goat, but it doesn't mean the effort isn't just as true. If anything, to me, it is a more perfect kind of effort because it is the most natural form of sacrificial activity to ever exist. Domestication is not. A bond can be shared with a hunted animal that is just as deep as a raised animal. It might be even more potent because it is not clouded by feelings of affection or other distractions.

You can try, but you will never convince me otherwise on this matter.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
XD My bad, misposted my reply. Sorry about that --> [link]
EternalxRequiem's avatar
I agree with your second paragraph and everything you said about sacrifices. However I take issue with your first. I am not so divorced from my food that I think it's evil. I just have a huge, deep connection with animals that even "back in the day" I would not have been able to kill something even just for food (sacrifice aside) and most likely would have starved. Granted in that period of time women were gatherers generally and men did the hunting/slaughtering. I don't think it is so wrong to be so caring and connected to animal kind that I cannot bare to see animals harmed in any way shape and form. I also don't think I've been brainwashed into thinking sacrifice is evil. It is simply something I cannot do because of my own reasons. When I was younger I was incredibly sick once and I ended up getting amnesia. There were two things I could remember. It wasn't my mom or dad. It wasn't my grandma or grandpa. The two things I could remember from my entire, young life were my two cats. When you're terribly scared of everything and everyone around you because you can't remember anything, but you see these two familiar fluffy animals... you sort of grow up cherishing every animal regardless of whether it is intended to be food or a beloved pet. I am not stupid or blind like the uneducated masses are. I do realize our food is slaughtered daily and they're not even raised on farms where they can freely roam and graze. They aren't treated as we all would wish. That disturbs me too, but alas we do need to eat to survive. I can't just run out and say, "Oh hey! I want to buy a farm. I want to buy my own cattle." We can barely afford to rent the place we're in so I think it's unrealistic to expect everyone to know what the past was like in terms of raising ones own food. I realize this is, in part, the governments fault.

I completely understand sacrifices and everything you're saying here. That doesn't mean I could myself do such a sacrifice. I can see how it works for other people and as long as they are using the entire animal from meat to hide to blood and everything in between and they actually respect the animal then it is fine and I will get over it. I was pointing out in my first response to the topic that there may be people out there who just kill an animal and take what they need just for the sacrifice and leave the rest. The only concern they have is getting what is needed for the ritual. That is what bothers me. On another note, in your comment you linked to you spoke of people who do raise their own food being jailed for slaughtering it. I wasn't aware that even happened. I pretty much thought that everyone had an understanding of this is how our food becomes what we see on our plates. Anyway, I'm not debating sacrifices. I understand it. I think it's fine for those who will use all of the animal and respect it. I just couldn't do it myself. I do, however, not like that everyone is falling under the naive and brainwashed label just because they may not like to see an animal harmed. Just because I can't bare seeing my food slaughtered doesn't mean I couldn't turn my eyes from it and accept the issue and what's going on.

I suddenly feel like I'm in the wrong for taking offerings so seriously. I honestly will feel a bit upset if I don't have a proper offering for my weekly ritual. I realize this is just me and a few others that I know of, but still. I couldn't harm an animal to make a sacrifice. I would probably be better off pricking my own finger and giving a sacrifice of my own blood, but... yea. I lost my train of though. Someone was outside my front window yelling. >< Sorry for rambling and more than likely repeating myself as well as any typos. I'm too tired to go back through and proof read. =\
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
Note that I said society in general, not you specifically. It is because of that separation that most people can't deal with the idea let alone the act of killing something for food. Again, note that I said most people, not all, nor you in particular. **smiles**

A proper sacrifice, correctly done, greatly honors the one given, as I stated before. That is the only live sacrifice I would ever condone, and most seem to agree with that. We all choose how we conduct our rituals and honor the divinity we pray to. The unscrupulous murderers you mention, my mother and I have indirectly had to deal with that mess. On Browns Point we had friends who had horses. We'd go visit them every weekend, often going riding. We all heard about the Satanic Cultists who had been stalking the area attacking livestock and even a boy, drugging them and cutting out their penis and leaving them to wake up screaming in pain to bleed to death. One night they went after one of our friend's horses, a gentle old brown appaloosa gelding named Britches. They had him drugged and on the ground, but had thankfully not started cutting on him when they were found and driven off. For three months we'd go over and someone was with the horses (there was 4 of them) with rifle in hand 24/7 to protect them. The cultists were run out of the area and I think some were arrested.

No, not everyone falls under the naive and brainwashed label, but far too many in society do, as I said earlier, including that 10 year old girl I mentioned. And yes, people have gone to jail for killing their own food animals because they are not "licensed and approved butchers". A lot of these people don't even know that to kill an animal, any animal, for any reason, requires special licensing, and to butcher your own animals is considered cruelty. They are only doing what they know to be right by the animals they have, raising and caring for them well, then later giving them a quick death and packing the meat for storage for the family to live on for the coming months. It's something they've done for generations, so they don't see a problem, let alone a need for special licensing. It simply never occurs to them, and when they are found out, they are blindsided by the courts, fined, and even jailed for it. It's sickening...

There is nothing wrong with holding offerings as serious things because frankly they are serious. They are a different level than sacrifices, but they are serious none the less. **hugs** You do what you must for your rituals, offerings, and sacrifices. That is all you can do.

One idea however, would be to actually make a "sacrificial animal, such as a crochet plush bull or other animal, hand made by you and blessed through ritual prayer. Then, when the time comes, sacrifice the plush animal by burning it, not unlike the sacrifice of the Burning Man effigy. It's an alternative to blood sacrifice that lets you put in a lot of time and energy into the sacrifice (not unlike raising a living animal would take) and would be something that would allow you to fulfill that ritual by giving up a sacrifice that costs you something, mainly the time and energy it took to make the plush animal and consecrate it from start to finish. There are patterns and instructions you can get for them, and be sure to make it only from natural fiber yarn and stuffing, such as wool, cotton, or hemp. That way no toxic fumes are released when you burn your sacrifice. Just a thought to consider.
EternalxRequiem's avatar
I know it's not me personally that you were speaking of, but I think that there are a lot of Wiccans, pagans and others of Abrahamic religions that feel that way about animals too. It's an intense love and care for animals. I can't believe that people have to have a special license to kill their own animals. That's just silly. I mean this country started off that way. Everyone raised their own food. I would fall into that category of not knowing we'd need such licensing. The real animal cruelty lies with feedlots and all the mistreatment the actual animals who become our food receive. =\

That's just terrible what they'd do to the horses. I had a hard time even reading that. I'm glad they were driven off or arrested. It makes me want to just kghfghks! I have no words. That makes me so angry and sad for the horses and all of the owners who had to deal with such terrible acts.

:hug: Right. This is true. I feel less silly now. :aww:

I will have to try that. It's a great idea. Since my husband and I are going to my grandparents' this weekend to help out I'll see if my grandma has anything I can use. She has tons of crafting stuff.


Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
**nods** I know, but laws have been made under the idea of "protecting" animals when all they did was pile excessive regulations and restrictions on people who are taking good care of their animals. The reason for this legislation is because of people who are truly cruel, like the ones attacking livestock like I mentioned earlier.

Also, that incident happened between April and June of 1982 in Washington State, I was 7 years old at the time and both my mother and I remember that nightmare all too well.

**smiles** Always happy to help hon. I am sincerely glad I could offer you an alternative that will give you the sacrificial offering you need without making you unnecessarily uncomfortable. There is always a way to do what we need to do for ourselves and our beliefs, we only need to find the right path to do so.
EternalxRequiem's avatar
That just brings the "some people just have to go and ruin it for the rest of us" though to mind.

That's quite a while ago. I think things like that would always be there to haunt one's memories and it's sad that those sort of things ever had to happen.

:huggle: I am as well and thank you for suggesting it again. Indeed, that is true.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
Pretty much, yeah.

**nods** The whole thing makes me sick that people do things like that.

You're welcome. **hugs** I added further details on options you could use to make it even more personal and a greater level of sacrifice to offer of yourself --> [link] I hope it helps you do what you need for your rituals hon. You should snap photos of them too, and post them explaining what you did and what it's fore, help spread the idea to others who might like to use the idea as well. **smiles**
EternalxRequiem's avatar
I'll shall check those out. I'll definitely post pictures once I make something. :D
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asleeplikewolves's avatar
I like the idea of the crocheted sacrificial animal, but left at just that would still be an offering. Unless it cost hundreds of dollars to make, which I doubt it would even if I tried to spend that kind of money. I would have to add blood or actual money sewn inside it, something of greater value than the $30 of supplies, and a few hours of making it.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
Depends on the size of the stuffed animal. It takes more than a few hours to make a crochet stuffed animal big enough to hug, so it's more than just an offering. Even a 6 inch tall bear took my mother a weekend to do. A crochet plush bull that is 20inches from chest to butt would take at least a week, and during the creation of said bull, one would have to spend that entire week in prayer and fasting while they made that plush bull. Thus it becomes a sacrifice because of all that was given up to make it and all that the maker put into it. Plus, most yarns are synthetic and natural yarns made if wool, hemp, or cotton are more expensive as is natural fiber stuffing, since most stuffing is polyester. Thus it would cost more than just $30 and a few hours work to make. You can also add a sizable cutting of your hair to the stuffing, for those with long hair and cutting it short is a sacrifice of oneself. Plus, having to learn how to crochet is an even greater sacrifice of your time and energy. It has to be something you made with your own hands, not something bought, and it is a sacrifice of your time, energy, and prayers to make. Plus, fasting during the entire time makes it an even greater sacrifice of oneself as you are giving up something during its creation. And like a living animal sacrifice, the crochet animal must be absolutely perfect with no blemishes, no mistakes in the stitching at all, no deformations in shape, nothing. Only a perfect animal, the best animal, can be used for a sacrifice. Then, you can take more yarn or thread and embroider special symbols and patterns on the animal (which must also be perfect), like the markings and decorations placed on a live animal sacrifice, which will make the plush's creation take even longer, including making crochet adornments (also perfect) to drape around the plush animal's neck as well, taking even longer. It can also be knitted instead of crochet, or very elaborately embroidered cloth. Ever tried making Irish lace? It takes a week just to do a small 6 inch doily with the thin white cotton thread, imagine how long it would take to make a large sacrificial bull entirely out of hand made Irish lace you stitched yourself? It doesn't require blood or money to make it a true sacrifice, taking time a lot of your time, energy, intensive prayer, and even fasting during its creation makes it a true sacrifice without the blood. **smiles**
asleeplikewolves's avatar
Well, we do have some differences, especially in dealing with the animal's "perfection" (nonexistent). But I can appreciate fasting while making an effigy to make it a more exhaustive process. I can tell we obviously come from extremely different traditions, because the more we talk, I'm realizing how different of our ideas of sacrifice are becoming. If yours is Native American, it is completely different than the other Native Americans I know who still practice animal sacrifice.

Also, side detail, I've always found cotton and natural fibers to be significantly cheaper than polyester. It must be a regional thing.
Leathurkatt-TFTiggy's avatar
A sacrifice must be without blemish, disease, or parasite. Thus it is considered naturally perfect and suitable for sacrifice. A hand made plush animal sacrifice must be without mistakes or malformations, thus considered "perfectly made" and sufficient for sacrifice. And my background regarding sacrifices is not only Cheyenne and other Native American, but a great many cultures, including Celtic, Norse, Egyptian, Greek-Roman, and even Abrahamic beliefs.

As for materials, it's a mixed bag and depends on where you buy them from. Silk is the most expensive, then Linen, then Wool, with Cotton as the cheapest. Plus, specialty Wools such as Merino Wool, Alpaca, and Angora are as expensive if not more so than Silk.

For anything to be a true sacrifice, you must sacrifice of yourself, thus the very nature of a true sacrifice. If it is purchased, the cost must cut so deeply into your budget that you must go without things, such as food, gas, entertainment, or other things, meaning you have to go without something that is important to you. As I said, to be a true sacrifice, you must give significantly of yourself, whether time, resources, skill (making a sacrificial effigy), or even cutting off your own hair and the hair shaved from a familiar. Items or animals that are without blemish of any kind and are considered to be "perfect" as such, and personal effort, time, and cost of yourself are true sacrifices and are honestly the only ones suitable as such.

I have studied Cultural Anthropology (Native American, Celtic, Norse, Greek-Roman, Egyptian, and even Feudal Japanese) since I was in grade school, and my mother has an additional 20+ years of study in Native American (primarily Cheyenne and Cherokee), Celtic, and Judeo-Christian culture and beliefs on top of that. So I well know what I am talking about in this, I grew up with all of this and was taught or studied it over the course of my life.
EternalxRequiem's avatar
I was thinking about saying the words "take issue" and I just want to clarify I'm not upset or anything. I just disagree and wanted to give a little insight into that with my story. ♥