Oooh. I would love more details, so yes, go on! I mentioned it at the top - I'm not well-educated in literature.
I think that we've had a lot of time for the divisions between prose and poetry (yeah, definitely Romantics onward) to solidify, and part of this happened as a result of serialized prose in newspapers/periodicals as well as the straight-up novel, so they are valid today, at least for the purposes of this discussion and probably also ones relating to contemporary trends. However, could the paradigm be shifting again back into something that's less clear?
Also I would note that the Athenians expected all storytelling to be performed. Prose gets read aloud occasionally, but it's very different. Thucydides, Xenophon and Herodotus seem to be a possible dividing point in early prose vs poetry, but do you know how they were regarded then? I'm not sure any information on it survives.
I think that we've had a lot of time for the divisions between prose and poetry (yeah, definitely Romantics onward) to solidify, and part of this happened as a result of serialized prose in newspapers/periodicals as well as the straight-up novel, so they are valid today, at least for the purposes of this discussion and probably also ones relating to contemporary trends. However, could the paradigm be shifting again back into something that's less clear?
Also I would note that the Athenians expected all storytelling to be performed. Prose gets read aloud occasionally, but it's very different. Thucydides, Xenophon and Herodotus seem to be a possible dividing point in early prose vs poetry, but do you know how they were regarded then? I'm not sure any information on it survives.
Gah, screw browser tabs. I just lost a bunch of text.
Anyway, I'm not confident in my knowledge of the Greeks, but you're more or less right. Prose seems confined to history and philosophy, which suggests that it was primarily informational in character. I would say that historically this tends to be the case, although sacred texts can blur this somewhat, as verse forms were used a lot. But again, recitation, singing, et. al.
And honestly, I'm not exactly sure where I was going with all this. Presumably some discussion of early prose-poetry, especially Rimbaud's "Season in Hell." I think that kinda signals what is still distinct about prose-poetry. I don't know if we're shifting towards less clear divisions, only because that would suggest we've veering away from prose novels or what is definitely poetry, which I don't notice is really the case. Beyond perhaps very insular avant-garde/experimental realms and a few outliers. I would say the situation is more or less like visual art, where abstraction and conceptualism didn't destroy representational painting. Instead, we simply have more viable options and new strategies for the use of traditional routes.
Anyway, I'm not confident in my knowledge of the Greeks, but you're more or less right. Prose seems confined to history and philosophy, which suggests that it was primarily informational in character. I would say that historically this tends to be the case, although sacred texts can blur this somewhat, as verse forms were used a lot. But again, recitation, singing, et. al.
And honestly, I'm not exactly sure where I was going with all this. Presumably some discussion of early prose-poetry, especially Rimbaud's "Season in Hell." I think that kinda signals what is still distinct about prose-poetry. I don't know if we're shifting towards less clear divisions, only because that would suggest we've veering away from prose novels or what is definitely poetry, which I don't notice is really the case. Beyond perhaps very insular avant-garde/experimental realms and a few outliers. I would say the situation is more or less like visual art, where abstraction and conceptualism didn't destroy representational painting. Instead, we simply have more viable options and new strategies for the use of traditional routes.
Aw fuck! Firefox can recover text, depending. I've gotten back half-written notes before.
Well, sacred texts were generally oral knowledge, no? I also don't know exactly who the audience for Thucydides or Herodotus were, beyond something something Peloponnesian War hey-can-we-drop-this-stupid-conflict and primarily Athenian most likely due to the system. (Xenophon comes off as more journaly. I know his prose wasn't as highbrow, anyway.)
So I haven't liked any Rimbaud so far, and I've barely touched on him. I should give that a try.
Hmm, that sounds like a good compromise. If it doesn't matter outside a niche, let the niche do whatever it likes...but then what should we do if something in there manages to wade into the mainstream?
Well, sacred texts were generally oral knowledge, no? I also don't know exactly who the audience for Thucydides or Herodotus were, beyond something something Peloponnesian War hey-can-we-drop-this-stupid-conflict and primarily Athenian most likely due to the system. (Xenophon comes off as more journaly. I know his prose wasn't as highbrow, anyway.)
So I haven't liked any Rimbaud so far, and I've barely touched on him. I should give that a try.
Hmm, that sounds like a good compromise. If it doesn't matter outside a niche, let the niche do whatever it likes...but then what should we do if something in there manages to wade into the mainstream?
Yes. But my point was that sacred texts serve a different function than epics, drama, lyrical poetry and can be more informative. Anyway, I don't know who the audience for Herodotus's histories was, but the little I've read is clearly written as an attempt at being a factual (or nearly, hah) account of things. So the intent is easy enough to guess, and it's different from the epics, etc.
What Rimbaud have you read? Translation might be an issue, unless you can read French.
I don't know what you mean with that last question. Let it be? Read it? Decide what we think about it? I'm not interested in policing people's tastes, nor am I one of those "omg degradation of the language" sorts.
What Rimbaud have you read? Translation might be an issue, unless you can read French.
I don't know what you mean with that last question. Let it be? Read it? Decide what we think about it? I'm not interested in policing people's tastes, nor am I one of those "omg degradation of the language" sorts.
Ahhh. Hm, so are we talking sacred texts like the Mysteries or what? Cause I just realised that most of the examples I'm thinking of are still like...Homer and Hesiod. We barely have fragments about stuff like the Eleusian Mysteries - and even those weren't supposed to exist, so examplesplease. 
I know some French, my vocabulary isn't the hottest but I could handle it otherwise. `tiganusi linked me so I figure he knows what he's on about.
Oh gods, those 'omg degradation of the language' sorts. Well, okay, so to try and rephrase that: within the niche, people can call it whatever they like. But let's say that a piece of 'prosetry' suddenly goes huge and shows up everywhere - do we now accept the original niche's term of 'prosetry' or do we push it into an existing category just for commercial purposes?
I know some French, my vocabulary isn't the hottest but I could handle it otherwise. `tiganusi linked me so I figure he knows what he's on about.
Oh gods, those 'omg degradation of the language' sorts. Well, okay, so to try and rephrase that: within the niche, people can call it whatever they like. But let's say that a piece of 'prosetry' suddenly goes huge and shows up everywhere - do we now accept the original niche's term of 'prosetry' or do we push it into an existing category just for commercial purposes?
Orphic hymns, for example. Not Greek, but the Rigveda would be in a similar vein. There things were probably passed on orally first, not written, and used ceremonially. Like I said, these things are written in verse, but they served a different function. That's really my only point. It's pretty easy to argue (and I would) that art, music, and storytelling arose out of religious/ceremonial practice, nonetheless you do see a division in function after a point (which goes w/general increase of complexity and division of labor as you reach civilization).
Like I said in my initial reply, prose-poetry (I really hate the term "prosetry" haha) is still treated mostly in the context of poetry. There are actually people who argue that some novels and short stories are prose-poetry, but this is not the widely accepted view. For instance, while I would agree that the prose in Portrait of the Artist... is often closer to poetry in that the language overrides the function, it still fits well into the bildungsroman format and is concerned with telling a full story in which a context is built, yadda yadda. I recall more recently there was that verse novel about werewolves(?) that was ultimately just a novel in an unusual form. I'm sure there was some marketing aspect to selling it as a novel and not as poetry, but it still seemed (from general reception) to be treated primarily as a novel by critics and readers.
Like I said in my initial reply, prose-poetry (I really hate the term "prosetry" haha) is still treated mostly in the context of poetry. There are actually people who argue that some novels and short stories are prose-poetry, but this is not the widely accepted view. For instance, while I would agree that the prose in Portrait of the Artist... is often closer to poetry in that the language overrides the function, it still fits well into the bildungsroman format and is concerned with telling a full story in which a context is built, yadda yadda. I recall more recently there was that verse novel about werewolves(?) that was ultimately just a novel in an unusual form. I'm sure there was some marketing aspect to selling it as a novel and not as poetry, but it still seemed (from general reception) to be treated primarily as a novel by critics and readers.
Ohh okay. Yeah, if I remember correctly the Vedas are all in kind of chapter-verse formats, similar to the Bible. But when were they written down...this is kind of embarrassing, I don't know the answer. I mean, the Bhagvad Gita technically has a known author, if you accept that Vyas wrote down both the Mahabharata and the Gita itself (although I'm sure these are from older oral traditions). Anyway, without more data I won't agree for sure but I like your hypothesis.
Haha, seriously, I'm not a fan of it either. Which throws a wrench into any discussion of legitimising its use. Anyway, I'd imagine trying pretty hard to sell something as a novel instead of poetry.
I mean, the Bhagvad Gita technically has a known author, if you accept that Vyas wrote down both the Mahabharata and the Gita itself (although I'm sure these are from older oral traditions). Anyway, without more data I won't agree for sure but I like your hypothesis.Haha, seriously, I'm not a fan of it either. Which throws a wrench into any discussion of legitimising its use. Anyway, I'd imagine trying pretty hard to sell something as a novel instead of poetry.
Well, the Vedas are a collection of many different sacred texts compiled over along period, each composed for a particular purpose. Not unlike the Torah or OT, really, but the Rigveda is a set of hymns that was passed down orally and probably doesn't have a single author. It wasn't committed to paper for quite a long time.
I just don't understand why it's so difficult to say "prose-poetry."
But yeah, novels sell better than poetry and if you've got something close enough to a novel, makes more sense to market it that way. But most prose-poetry I've encountered fits better in the poetry section. I tend to read it more as I would poetry, just with a much looser form borrowed from prose.
I just don't understand why it's so difficult to say "prose-poetry."
But yeah, novels sell better than poetry and if you've got something close enough to a novel, makes more sense to market it that way. But most prose-poetry I've encountered fits better in the poetry section. I tend to read it more as I would poetry, just with a much looser form borrowed from prose.
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