Psst... Yo man, don't listen to him. Yeah sure, some adult animation is superficial but you can say the same for animated features targeted at kids. It's a slippery slope to discuses, let alone get a definitive answer for. C: (Also Bakshi's work is just really enjoyable and awesome!)
I say superficial because the vast majority of "adult" animations in America are only adult because they've added superficial trappings like swears, blood, and tits. They rarely tackle truly adult material or subject matters. Bakshi is close, but even he often went for "shock value" rather than presenting material in an intellectual way.
That does not mean there aren't adult animations out there. Just not many adult American animations that I would view as being on-par with an adult live-action film.
Aw man, this is not a discussion I want to have, I'm gonna state my points and ollie the fuck outta here, because I know when it comes to 'discussions' with you, you're fans start white-knighting and you'll end up blocking me and feh. Just, here's some food for thought for you;
Firstly, I'm going to ignore the fact you essentially just called Mr. Bakshi superficial. Secondary, you've just said American live action movies are better than the animated features they produce. That makes no sense because live action movies aimed at adults have just as much swears/blood/tits too, particularly anything Hollywood churns out.
Also, you do know that the inclusion of these things doesn't actually lessen then impact or take away from an animation (or any kind of film for that matter), right? Look at The Boondocks; the animation is stunning, the writing is excellent but oh look, it's full of what you just said makes adult animation superficial... Even though it's an incredibly satirical social commentary. But hey, it's not a movie so I guess it doesn't count.
Thirdly; what exactly is adult material or subject matters if you exclude sex, violence and bad words?
When you afront me for things I didn't say because you twisted my words around, yeah, naturally people are gonna respond to that, so... if you don't want that to happen, don't do that.
Firstly, I did not say that Bakshi himself was superficial. I said that he USES superficial trappings of adult material within his movies for "shock" value.
Secondly, I think you don't understand what I mean by "superficial trappings" which is why you're getting confused. Think of it like video games: A video game may be rated M for language, violence, and sex... but that does not automatically make that game "mature" in the sense that it tackles meaningful issues. Teenagers often think they're being "grown up" if they cuss a lot or talk about sex, when in fact they're being very immature. The same can be said for movies. An R rated movie with tons of swears, sex, and violence does not automatically elevate that movie into the realms of powerful insightful content. In fact, there are a lot of G rated films which are more "mature" with their themes and content than some R rated films are. It's the way the content is used within the movie that makes it meaningful.
When I say that adult oriented animated movies aren't "on-par" with adult oriented live-action movies, it is not a 1:1 comparison. Heavy Metal, for example, is not on par with Schindler's List just because they both contain nudity, sex, swearing, and gratuitous amounts of violence.
Thirdly, I love how everyone is trying to "get" me by reciting adult oriented TV shows, when in fact I am talking ONLY about American FILM. Not TV. Not movies animated in other countries. I am talking specifically and only about the American Animation Film Industry, of which has not produced, in my opinion, very any reputable films that fit the criteria I've listed.
Fourth, when I am talking about mature themes, I am of course talking about addressing issues that we as a society or as individuals face, how we face them, presenting a side to an argument, allowing the audience to mull over the issues presented, etc. Iron Giant presents more mature themes and thoughts about what it means to be a hero and believing in your own worth, than, say, The Mummy.
I really wish people wouldn't freak out so much over things that I say, especially when they seem to always want to deliberately take them the wrong way. I chose my words carefully, and I mean what I say. When people misunderstand and mischaracterize what I say, it's frustrating. Nothing I said was objectionable. It just seems like another excuse to nitpick semantics.
I'm pretty sure most live-action films are also "adult" because they have coarse language, sexual themes, and bloody violence. As for superficial, look at Michael Bay's track record! The Battlefield film is also a good example of someone thinking a concept from A BOARD GAME could translate well into a movie. Next thing ya know, we're gonna see a movie about Chutes and Ladders!
True, but there's a distinction between adding swears and fouls language to make a movie seem more grown up, and using those same things intellegently within the story for meaningful purposes.
I would argue that the way Michael Bay uses those trappings is superficial, while Stephen Spielberg using the same content is much more meaningful. You get it?
I'm curious. You say "vast majority" meaning, at least in your opinion and in accord to your comment, that amongst the majority there is a minority, at least, that indeed does succeed in being both "adult" and "mature."
Tell me, then, Tom. What "adult" animation do you consider actually succeeds in being adult while simultaneously being meaningful despite the prevalence of mature content?
To be honest, I can't think of any adult American animated films that aren't superficial in some way. The closest I can think of is Who Framed Roger Rabbit and that's not even R rated.
Of course this is only related to American films. Outside of America there are a lot more that do it successfully.
Sta.sh
Devious Comments
Yeah sure, some adult animation is superficial but you can say the same for animated features targeted at kids. It's a slippery slope to discuses, let alone get a definitive answer for. C:
(Also Bakshi's work is just really enjoyable and awesome!)
I just wanted to see what's Andrew's opinion on Adult Animation.
And yeah kids movies are pretty superficial XD
Ralph Bakshi's work is amazing indeed (Can't wait for Last Days of Coney Island)
And oh man, same! The character designs and the concept art for it are just so beautiful.. c:
That does not mean there aren't adult animations out there. Just not many adult American animations that I would view as being on-par with an adult live-action film.
Firstly, I'm going to ignore the fact you essentially just called Mr. Bakshi superficial.
Secondary, you've just said American live action movies are better than the animated features they produce. That makes no sense because live action movies aimed at adults have just as much swears/blood/tits too, particularly anything Hollywood churns out.
Also, you do know that the inclusion of these things doesn't actually lessen then impact or take away from an animation (or any kind of film for that matter), right? Look at The Boondocks; the animation is stunning, the writing is excellent but oh look, it's full of what you just said makes adult animation superficial... Even though it's an incredibly satirical social commentary. But hey, it's not a movie so I guess it doesn't count.
Thirdly; what exactly is adult material or subject matters if you exclude sex, violence and bad words?
Firstly, I did not say that Bakshi himself was superficial. I said that he USES superficial trappings of adult material within his movies for "shock" value.
Secondly, I think you don't understand what I mean by "superficial trappings" which is why you're getting confused. Think of it like video games: A video game may be rated M for language, violence, and sex... but that does not automatically make that game "mature" in the sense that it tackles meaningful issues. Teenagers often think they're being "grown up" if they cuss a lot or talk about sex, when in fact they're being very immature. The same can be said for movies. An R rated movie with tons of swears, sex, and violence does not automatically elevate that movie into the realms of powerful insightful content. In fact, there are a lot of G rated films which are more "mature" with their themes and content than some R rated films are. It's the way the content is used within the movie that makes it meaningful.
When I say that adult oriented animated movies aren't "on-par" with adult oriented live-action movies, it is not a 1:1 comparison. Heavy Metal, for example, is not on par with Schindler's List just because they both contain nudity, sex, swearing, and gratuitous amounts of violence.
Thirdly, I love how everyone is trying to "get" me by reciting adult oriented TV shows, when in fact I am talking ONLY about American FILM. Not TV. Not movies animated in other countries. I am talking specifically and only about the American Animation Film Industry, of which has not produced, in my opinion, very any reputable films that fit the criteria I've listed.
Fourth, when I am talking about mature themes, I am of course talking about addressing issues that we as a society or as individuals face, how we face them, presenting a side to an argument, allowing the audience to mull over the issues presented, etc. Iron Giant presents more mature themes and thoughts about what it means to be a hero and believing in your own worth, than, say, The Mummy.
I really wish people wouldn't freak out so much over things that I say, especially when they seem to always want to deliberately take them the wrong way. I chose my words carefully, and I mean what I say. When people misunderstand and mischaracterize what I say, it's frustrating. Nothing I said was objectionable. It just seems like another excuse to nitpick semantics.
I would argue that the way Michael Bay uses those trappings is superficial, while Stephen Spielberg using the same content is much more meaningful. You get it?
Tell me, then, Tom. What "adult" animation do you consider actually succeeds in being adult while simultaneously being meaningful despite the prevalence of mature content?
Of course this is only related to American films. Outside of America there are a lot more that do it successfully.