Comment on Captive-Bred is Not Wild by MonocerosArts
Comment History
I said some can be content in captivity. I did not say they are content. I am very careful about my wording. I don't need to know them by name to know that no two orcas are the same. As an orca enthusiast, you of all people should know that. To lump all orcas together and say that no orca could ever be content in captivity, even if given what it needs, is a distinctly animal-rights-type attitude and has already been debunked in the description of this stamp. I have no time for it. Please tell me you don't believe all orcas have the exact same needs and desires.
Not really. The truth is it can happen in both places. Most captive orcas don't have nubs for teeth. Some do, some don't, just like in the wild.
I'm more worried about the drooping dorsal fin in captive male orcas. That's never seen in the wild and 100% of catpive male orcas' dorsal fins are drooped. That tells me that those particular orcas are not getting something that they need. My guess is that they need more space, because orcas are such large animals. It all goes back to my original argument: I believe that any species of animal can be kept in captivity if given what it needs, but orcas apparently aren't being given what they need, or at least the males aren't. It's easier to keep land animals in captivity because you just have to buy suitable land for them, whereas an aquatic animal must have a tank, water, a filtration system, water changes, etc. all made for them. Instead of saying "orcas should never be bred in captivity," I'd want to find out what it is that's causing the males' fins to droop, and then see if it's possible to fix that. If it's not possible, then of course, no, orcas should not be bred in captivity.
Not really. The truth is it can happen in both places. Most captive orcas don't have nubs for teeth. Some do, some don't, just like in the wild.
I'm more worried about the drooping dorsal fin in captive male orcas. That's never seen in the wild and 100% of catpive male orcas' dorsal fins are drooped. That tells me that those particular orcas are not getting something that they need. My guess is that they need more space, because orcas are such large animals. It all goes back to my original argument: I believe that any species of animal can be kept in captivity if given what it needs, but orcas apparently aren't being given what they need, or at least the males aren't. It's easier to keep land animals in captivity because you just have to buy suitable land for them, whereas an aquatic animal must have a tank, water, a filtration system, water changes, etc. all made for them. Instead of saying "orcas should never be bred in captivity," I'd want to find out what it is that's causing the males' fins to droop, and then see if it's possible to fix that. If it's not possible, then of course, no, orcas should not be bred in captivity.
The biggest cause of dorsal collapse is honestly the fact that they spend so much more time at the surface. In the wild, orcas rest by kinda just swimming in a straight line. In captivity, they rest by either circling or logging. There aren't any bones up there, so without that support from the water, gravity happens. Also, the fact that they circle around kinda causes their fin to lean more. It's not an issue of "they aren't getting something that they need," it's largely an issue of gravity.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=awpAiy…
Here, at around 4:40, a killer whale scientist explains some of the reasons.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=awpAiy…
Here, at around 4:40, a killer whale scientist explains some of the reasons.
Okay, that's good to know! Still, the fact that they swim in circles all day kind of says a lot. But at least it's not as bad as people make it out to be.
Yeah, but they do get other stuff to do. In the wild the swim all day to find food (which is getting scarce these days), so captive orcas swim around when they're not occupied. Just like how big cats/wild canids like to walk or run around their enclosures a bit when they aren't occupied with something else. And with Blue World, I think they'll be swimming in a straight line more often (hurrah for orca treadmill!), so we'll probably see less pronounced dorsal fin collapse. But yeah, people act like collapse is this huge issuue; but it's mainly gravity, with maybe a tad bit of dehydration in there.
Yeah, I know they get to do other stuff than just swim in circles. I don't think it's a terrible, horrible arrangement for them. It's just that having kept aquariums, I know how much space aquatic animals need, and sadly, orca tanks just aren't big enough. But it's not as bad as PETA and others make it out to be, obviously! 
Alright, that's good. I can agree with that, I mean I always was kind of like "eh, sure they're big enough." But lately I was watching videos of orcas in the UV, and I was like "they do have good body-to-ratio space, but they ARE long-ranging animals and they have to live there all the time. They really don't have a ton of space." But I don't know, the females and juveniles seem like maybe they have good space, but the big boys like Tilikum and Ulises...you see them and relatively how much space they have, and you know that they could certainly use more.
That would probably be a strain on my support of SeaWorld if we didn't have Blue World Project coming. Twice the space, 50 feet deep, currents, naturalistic walls and plants, live fish swimming around? I can definitely live with that a LOT more than the current tanks.
And then I think that bottlenose, lags, and ESPECIALLY Commerson's have lots of space. Especially since I haven't seen very many stereotypical behaviors in bottlenoses (which I have observed quite a lot), lags ( the one time I saw them), or the videos I've seen of Commies. If anything could use to be improved, I'd say it's belugas. They and orcas have quite a bit more stereotypes than the smaller cetaceans, and they're bigger, so it makes sense to expand with them. Maybe they'll come next when SeaWorld is finished expanding their killer whales and bottlenose!
And yeah, I agree with that for sure.
It's so refreshing how you have concerns about orca captivity, but you're not to the degree of "oh, captive orcas are just 100% miserable and there's no way in hell that they could ever be content in any way as captives!" Because a lot of people have that mindset these days.
That would probably be a strain on my support of SeaWorld if we didn't have Blue World Project coming. Twice the space, 50 feet deep, currents, naturalistic walls and plants, live fish swimming around? I can definitely live with that a LOT more than the current tanks.
And then I think that bottlenose, lags, and ESPECIALLY Commerson's have lots of space. Especially since I haven't seen very many stereotypical behaviors in bottlenoses (which I have observed quite a lot), lags ( the one time I saw them), or the videos I've seen of Commies. If anything could use to be improved, I'd say it's belugas. They and orcas have quite a bit more stereotypes than the smaller cetaceans, and they're bigger, so it makes sense to expand with them. Maybe they'll come next when SeaWorld is finished expanding their killer whales and bottlenose!
And yeah, I agree with that for sure.
It's so refreshing how you have concerns about orca captivity, but you're not to the degree of "oh, captive orcas are just 100% miserable and there's no way in hell that they could ever be content in any way as captives!" Because a lot of people have that mindset these days.
That sounds pretty neat! And it would be more fun to watch orcas in a naturalistic environment as opposed to an empty tank.
Yes, I'm concerned about orcas (and all animals) but I'm not an animal rights extremist. I really don't stand for much animal rights anyhow. I'm more for animal welfare.
Yes, I'm concerned about orcas (and all animals) but I'm not an animal rights extremist. I really don't stand for much animal rights anyhow. I'm more for animal welfare.
Agreed!
I'm an animal welfare person myself, as well.
I can totally understand concerns, and most of them are very reasonable. The more extreme animal rights stuff is what gets on my nerves. XD
I'm an animal welfare person myself, as well.
I can totally understand concerns, and most of them are very reasonable. The more extreme animal rights stuff is what gets on my nerves. XD
i didn't say it couldn't happen in both places, but i JUST looked up the names of ALL the orcas i know in captivity and it seems the majority DO have nub teeth/crappy dental care.
Just curious cause i am confused, how can you say they CAN be happy in captivity, if you do not know of any that are?
Just curious cause i am confused, how can you say they CAN be happy in captivity, if you do not know of any that are?
Very few have nub teeth. You don't need to know names to know that. Are you talking about pulpotomy? That's a procedure done to humans and orcas to prevent dental decay. It's very effective and doesn't affect eating at all. An orca who's had pulpotomy done could use its teeth in the wild. It looks weird, but it doesn't hurt the orca. What's bad is when the vet doesn't use anesthesia during the procedure, sometimes called modified pulpotomy. That is cruelty.
I think that some could be content in captivity because I know that no two orcas are the same. Some orcas may be content in captivity, and obviously others won't. It appears there is something wrong with how they are being treated now (or at least with how males are treated), so I think biologists should study that and see if there is a solution. That's how science works: you see a problem, you try to fix it. You don't just push the problem somewhere else.
I think that some could be content in captivity because I know that no two orcas are the same. Some orcas may be content in captivity, and obviously others won't. It appears there is something wrong with how they are being treated now (or at least with how males are treated), so I think biologists should study that and see if there is a solution. That's how science works: you see a problem, you try to fix it. You don't just push the problem somewhere else.