Comment on Brachiosaur comparison by Paleo-King
As usual, good insight.
Good point on pivoting. I hadn't thought of a sauropod applying weapons that way (similar to stegosaurs and ankylosaurs that would pivot so they could hit attackers with their tails). Where exactly would the Brontomerus kick, though, the elephant's face, tusks, forelimbs?
Good point on pivoting. I hadn't thought of a sauropod applying weapons that way (similar to stegosaurs and ankylosaurs that would pivot so they could hit attackers with their tails). Where exactly would the Brontomerus kick, though, the elephant's face, tusks, forelimbs?
Anywhere. As long as the foot claws landed a blow, the elephant is in trouble. its reaction time would likely not be as fast due to its more slender limb bones and muscles.
If the foot or leg hit the elephants tusks, there could be enough force to break at least one tusk.
We have to imagine Brontomerus being a faster animal, because of its larger muscle attachment surfaces on the shoulder, humerus, and that crazy flared ilium.
If the foot or leg hit the elephants tusks, there could be enough force to break at least one tusk.
We have to imagine Brontomerus being a faster animal, because of its larger muscle attachment surfaces on the shoulder, humerus, and that crazy flared ilium.
Ah, okay.
I was initially wondering if a sauropod could raise its leg high enough to kick an elephant's cranial region, but then I saw this picture (ironically, of an elephant laterally raising its leg).
Elephants and sauropods aren't completely alike, but they do have similarly-functioning legs. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if Brontomerus could do the same, only in this case, to defend itself (and for whatever it's worth, I did find this link; judging from the last four paragraphs, I have a feeling my hunch may be right).
I was initially wondering if a sauropod could raise its leg high enough to kick an elephant's cranial region, but then I saw this picture (ironically, of an elephant laterally raising its leg).
Elephants and sauropods aren't completely alike, but they do have similarly-functioning legs. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if Brontomerus could do the same, only in this case, to defend itself (and for whatever it's worth, I did find this link; judging from the last four paragraphs, I have a feeling my hunch may be right).
LOL that's a funny picture. True, they can do that. And given how much smaller and less muscular the elephant's hips are, proportionally, it would be a much simpler balancing act for a sauropod.
Brontomerus was built to do a kick that went both forward and to the side, and would not have had to tilt the entire body one way to pull it off. The elephant is stiffer and has smaller muscle attachment points than a sauropod so it ends up having to to that doggy-hydrant dance to get its foot up. Sauropods were all more hindlimb-centered than elephants and so had more of their strength in the legs (even brachiosaurs have their center of mass closer to the hips than elephants do), so they could do the kick much better, and don't forget that a sauropod's tail can be used as a prop while doing the kick, if that's needed for balance. This is probably where some of those rare rumored "tail drag prints" that Jack Horner was so fond of mentioning, came from. The tail wasn't being dragged so much as pushed into the ground for stability.
Brontomerus was built to do a kick that went both forward and to the side, and would not have had to tilt the entire body one way to pull it off. The elephant is stiffer and has smaller muscle attachment points than a sauropod so it ends up having to to that doggy-hydrant dance to get its foot up. Sauropods were all more hindlimb-centered than elephants and so had more of their strength in the legs (even brachiosaurs have their center of mass closer to the hips than elephants do), so they could do the kick much better, and don't forget that a sauropod's tail can be used as a prop while doing the kick, if that's needed for balance. This is probably where some of those rare rumored "tail drag prints" that Jack Horner was so fond of mentioning, came from. The tail wasn't being dragged so much as pushed into the ground for stability.
Hmm, you know what would be nice? What if you could draw a picture of Brontomerus doing such a high kick to say, a conspecific? Obviously you don't HAVE to follow through with this, but it would be cool to see just what this would look like 
.
So, I guess sauropods maybe weren't so helpless without their size after all...
.So, I guess sauropods maybe weren't so helpless without their size after all...
There was nothing helpless about them lol. This is why they also produced small species - and NOT just on isolated islands. Most of the saltasaurids in Argentina are around 30ft. or so as adults. Most of the Brazilian Trigonosaurids are also rather small. Even at that size they had a lot of power in the legs and the tail. And even derived titanosaurs still had the thumb claw, like in Diamantinasaurus.
Just how large was Saltasaurus? Figures seem to vary according to Wikipedia. One publication has it at the size of a modern elephant while Paul's Princeton Field Guide (2010 edition) has it at about the size of a white rhino. Interestingly enough, Carnotaurus, a rhinoceros-sized theropod, was also found in Argentina and it seems like their temporal ranges overlapped. If Saltasaurus was only about as large as this would-be predator, then yeah, I guess it does testify sauropods' ability to survive with predators as big as themselves.
I also have to ask how big the trigonosaurids were. And in Brazil, there was Pycnonemosaurus (which was even bigger than Carnotaurus; 8.9 m vs. 7.8 m).
I also have to ask how big the trigonosaurids were. And in Brazil, there was Pycnonemosaurus (which was even bigger than Carnotaurus; 8.9 m vs. 7.8 m).
Paul is underestimating the mass of Saltasaurus - just like he does with almost everything.
Its mass was at least that of an elephant. The tricky thing is that there are many specimens of different sizes and Paul seems to be only going based on the holotype which barely hits 30 feet (plus he shrinkwraps it to death and even then, his version of the neck seems to underestimate the vertebra count and length). It's not the biggest specimen of Saltasaurus. The other issue is that there's no fully mature and fused scapulacoracoid known, just immature ones, so adult size is unknown for this most famous of titanosaurs.
Carnotaurus was around 1 ton, and there are some titanosaurs from Argentina that would have been that small. "Microcoelus" is one of them, and was sometimes shoved into Neuquensaurus though that's not saying much - the humeri of three very different titanosaurs have been thrown in there, and the "Microcoelus" ones look more like Opisthocoelicaudia's stumpy humeri than the more normal-proportioned ones Von Huene assigned to Neuquensaurus in 1929 (then called "titanosaurus australis"). Neuquensaurus itself, however, is known from a fused adult scapulacoracoid, and so it appears to be a 30-footer as an adult - so unlike what Dougal Dixon claims, Neuquensaurus was probably smaller than Saltasaurus, not the other way around. I have yet to see his fabled "50-foot Neuquensaurus".
Saltasauridae is a funny family. Almost every species in it is small. Except Elaltitan, which may be 50-60ft. long and has a more elongated femur that when complete was actually a rival to Traukutitan and to Antarctosaurus wichmannianus. But more derived saltasaurs are almost dwarfs by sauropod standards.
The Trigonosaurids were comparable in size to most saltasaurs but with longer necks. So maybe in the 30-40 foot range, depending on the species. The main problem with this family is ALSO the lack of shoulder material, so judging which ones were adults is a pain. Scapulae are known from Muyelensaurus and Laplatasaurus but they don't have a coracoid fused... and not even a scapula for the more established species (Trigonosaurus, Barrosasaurus, Bonatitan, Ampelosaurus)... and given that these are all in the 30-40 foot range, it's possible that trigonosaurs maxed out at bigger sizes.
So the end verdict is that nearly all of these animals outmassed Carnotaurus, but by how much is not yet clear due to not knowing their upper limits. But Carnotaurus wasn't necessarily the biggest predator of its time, there may be some big neovenatorids waiting to be found in the Allen, Plottier, Neuquen and other Late Cretaceous formations. Something like Orkoraptor but different.
Its mass was at least that of an elephant. The tricky thing is that there are many specimens of different sizes and Paul seems to be only going based on the holotype which barely hits 30 feet (plus he shrinkwraps it to death and even then, his version of the neck seems to underestimate the vertebra count and length). It's not the biggest specimen of Saltasaurus. The other issue is that there's no fully mature and fused scapulacoracoid known, just immature ones, so adult size is unknown for this most famous of titanosaurs.
Carnotaurus was around 1 ton, and there are some titanosaurs from Argentina that would have been that small. "Microcoelus" is one of them, and was sometimes shoved into Neuquensaurus though that's not saying much - the humeri of three very different titanosaurs have been thrown in there, and the "Microcoelus" ones look more like Opisthocoelicaudia's stumpy humeri than the more normal-proportioned ones Von Huene assigned to Neuquensaurus in 1929 (then called "titanosaurus australis"). Neuquensaurus itself, however, is known from a fused adult scapulacoracoid, and so it appears to be a 30-footer as an adult - so unlike what Dougal Dixon claims, Neuquensaurus was probably smaller than Saltasaurus, not the other way around. I have yet to see his fabled "50-foot Neuquensaurus".
Saltasauridae is a funny family. Almost every species in it is small. Except Elaltitan, which may be 50-60ft. long and has a more elongated femur that when complete was actually a rival to Traukutitan and to Antarctosaurus wichmannianus. But more derived saltasaurs are almost dwarfs by sauropod standards.
The Trigonosaurids were comparable in size to most saltasaurs but with longer necks. So maybe in the 30-40 foot range, depending on the species. The main problem with this family is ALSO the lack of shoulder material, so judging which ones were adults is a pain. Scapulae are known from Muyelensaurus and Laplatasaurus but they don't have a coracoid fused... and not even a scapula for the more established species (Trigonosaurus, Barrosasaurus, Bonatitan, Ampelosaurus)... and given that these are all in the 30-40 foot range, it's possible that trigonosaurs maxed out at bigger sizes.
So the end verdict is that nearly all of these animals outmassed Carnotaurus, but by how much is not yet clear due to not knowing their upper limits. But Carnotaurus wasn't necessarily the biggest predator of its time, there may be some big neovenatorids waiting to be found in the Allen, Plottier, Neuquen and other Late Cretaceous formations. Something like Orkoraptor but different.
View all replies