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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
Quit the '-chan' talk if you want to be serious with me.

But at least you're doing better this time without the CAPTILISATION of WORDS used for emphasis. If you want to emphasis your point put it in bold or in italics, don't be lazy. I dislike it when you're TELLING your POINT in this fashion - sounds like you're shouting at me - yeah it sounds stupid but that's how I see it.

Drama queen because you just love to stir in a good heated discussion of a person's wrongdoing. Something that you may dislike from that person and have this urge to get attention. Again I'm not used to it when it's coming from you.

But if I'm totally wrong on this then ignore it.

Your feedback here is better I have to admit since it clears things up a little.

Anyway back to the discussion.

What you've seen is only a mock of portion of what the tutorial may look like - it is defintely not the end product. Judge me when I show a proper page.

This piece here is comission art that I've spent close to an hour on each character. Obviously more time will be spent on the proper page of the real book - providing I had the time to work on it in future.

Oh you are not the only one whom been teaching kids. Though I didn't do it in a formal setting, I did it while I was touring. People gave me feedback on those exact pages I took to SoS event and they found it most useful. How's that for my perspective?

They weren't confused on where and when to draw certain body parts - they were clever enough to figure how to put the pieces of the puzzle together. In fact that was more of an enjoyable experience because they find it fun to do so. The challenge is to discover the best way to draw something - what is said on the page isn't 100% the answer. The learner get's a 110% answer when they found the most comfortable way of doing it. Geez the kids you were teaching were pretty lacking in the practical department if they can't figure that one out (and kids as in beyond the kindergarden and primary school levels in Australia).

I've shown it to adults out of random while I was on transit to London city, and they found it alright (heck they weren't even fans but at least they knew of the hedgehog).

During my world tour 2007 I've also presented my 'How to Draw' sketches (I don't have them anymore) to passbyers who had the guts to ask whether they can look at my portfolio. They liked what they saw and recommended I should do a tutorial book using the same method of sketches for kids.

So formal experience with the children doesn't dictate a true answer. I told you, criticise properly when the book is out.

The final product is much more different than just a few lines and pieces to a finished drawing.
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Devious Comments

:icontaeshilh:
taeshilh Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Professional General Artist
Hey, you asked me to stop being such a "drama queen" so I was responding to that by patronising you right back. Surely you wouldn't want me to pat your head and go back to talking about how awesome your comic is - just like old times, right Darkspeeds-sama~?

I find it fascinating that you think just because I'm being critical of your work that it means it's some mission of mine to get attention or some goal to bring in the drama. I am known to give critique to people, anyone that's close to me can vouch for that. Am I trying to rain on their parade? No. I'm treating you how I would treat my friends or anyone else who posts on this site. Only this time I'm being harsher and less restrained because you seemingly cannot deal with taking real critique. I have to hammer my points in or you just ignore them.

I also see the "my fans say I'm cool" defense alive and well in your most recent post. So, what, the Sonic fans you met said it's useful? Were they 7 years old? Did they actually use it? Because as far as I knew that convention was filled with adults, many of which have extensive experience in drawing anthropomorphs and likely had no time to see if your guide offered much beyond a Google image search for Sonic reference drawings. You've shown randoms on the train, etc? That's great, and I'm sure they liked your ability to mimic the style, but the key issue here is the method you're using and they would have little experience regarding that. So no, until you tell me you've done a test on a group of kids and found your sheets wildly successful, I don't think you can claim that the evidence proves me wrong. All you're doing is blurring the lines between people praising your ability and people praising the usefulness of your guides.

As I said before, I am judging your progress now because normally it's good to give feedback on works in progress so that the artist keeps it in mind as the work develops. It would be weird to critique to something completely finished unless it's a generalised critique that can be helpful in the future. I'm also basing what I say on my memory of your Sonic tutorials in the past. I always found them useless, but I've kept my mouth shut because hey.. if that's how you want to "teach" then that's your game. But now, the fact you're talking about considering getting SEGA (Uh sorry, Sega) to allow you to publish Sonic drawing books has made me feel like I have to speak up about the fundamental problems with your approach to this. I'm letting you know early that your entire method is wrong, so your attempts to shrug off what I'm saying with "but this is a small portion" is no defense at all, as you haven't expressed any intention to deviate from the lesson style I'm criticizing.

Beyond that, it's also ridiculous you're hiding behind the "Well it isn't finished!!!" card. Why isn't this in scraps then? Why didn't you critique discourage? Stop making excuses when people are saying something other than "GR8 JOB DARKSPEEDS ^___^" . You're an aspiring adult artist. Act like one.
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
Hell no. You should adapt to the situation, I ain't going back to that sort of thing. No 'chan' or 'sama' please, don't care which one, just plain Elson would do, much like I say Veronica to you.

All you're doing is blurring the lines between people praising your ability and people praising the usefulness of your guides.

Again you can't be the judge of that and neither can I. Wait till the book is out if you want a more accurate result. And yes I will draw on this card because it's practical logic.

Feedback in progress is something I will consider from a pro, not from someone who hasn't any real experience - your feedback is based on an approach you see as 'best fit for me'. I don't need that (friend or not). I told you already and you still haven't listened.

Your feedback is a useful contrast, I don't need it when I haven't even asked for it. (yes I deliberately repeated there to make sure you got the message) I allowed flexibility in the commenting but I didn't ask for advanced critique like yours. I'm doing this for the fun of it, not to get told what to do around here (i.e. 'should and what-nots' - wasting my time here listening to that sort of thing).

I use DA as a way to give back to those who have supported my work and to those who appreciate my humble standards. I don't use DA for professional purposes. Do you know what recreation means? Or have you been taught a very different meaning to that?

The people who comment on my stuff may be blind to your eyes but they at least took the time and effort to check out my art in the first place - they're not dumb enough to speak out in a more serious fashion if they want to. Seems like people who gave you a one word comment or emoticon type comment pisses you alot. For crying out loud get over with it, DA is mixed crowd and they are free to post whatever they want. I'm more than happy if they did that (just as long as it's not SPAM).

I'm happy to talk about the art and things that will make the learning experience better but it ain't cool when someone tries to seriously suggest what I should do around here.

So yeah I am acting like an adult artist, I respect those who give me the general thumbs up on a piece of work because that is all I need to be satisfied for a days of recreational work (stuff that do out of my free time or of a 'conceptual basis' to illustrate an idea I had in mind, in this case).

Again if I were to put something up that is for sale and it is already finished (and I asked for an advanced critique on it) they have every right to tell me it's shit and why (and how to improve upon it).
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:icontaeshilh:
taeshilh Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Professional General Artist
Clearly, you have a lot of criteria to satisfy when it comes to commenting on your work.

It's easy to tell when people are behaving like mindless sycophants. It's not the work of a rocket scientist. That is why I'm skeptical over your "proof".

Critique is useful from anyone who can back it up and provide constructive ideas about how to improve. You don't need a "degree in criticism" to tell you if your breasts are wonky or if Sonic's shoes look limp. Some of the best critics are normal people, because they are observing from an unbiased perspective and they can see what's wrong just because it "looks wrong" to them. I will find criticism from my cousin just as helpful as criticism from a professional cartoonist.

And.. you haven't asked for crits? You're posting this on a public art site. A public art site. That means people can comment about whatever they damn well feel because you have it set on "your comment." People like me have the ability to leave our comment with our thoughts, we're not forced to type "what Darkspeeds wants you to say". If you don't like this situation, put your work on "critique discouraged" already for crying out loud, and admit to it.

Also, who says I'm not doing my art for the fun of it? I draw comics and do simplistic stuff to amuse people, but if I define a collar bone incorrectly, I want to be told how to improve because otherwise it would be difficult to pick up on my constant errors! As I've stated in the past, a good example in your case was that your Ashworth characters woulda probably looked like complete Sonic fancharacters if people didn't band together and tell you that you should branch out and make your own style. Critique is something that helps you in the long run, in everything you do. Can you seriously say that you aren't able to learn anything from comments on an early idea for a future how-to-draw book, just because it isn't printed on glossy paper and bound up in a bookstore? I'd find it embarrassing to have errors that cannot be changed. Remember "foreward" in the Ashworth comic? Pre~tty unpro~fessional~ I thought published work would be work after much proofreading and fixing so that there AREN'T errors for people to notice.

I'm also very familiar with the idea of recreation, thanks. Drawing for recreation is fun, but I also know what respect and appreciation is. I apply it to my fans. Perhaps for you, showing your work to friends in an informal environment can only acceptably result in "wow, I love this so much, great work as always :clap:". To me, I am pleased that my fans engage in my work enough to give me new ideas, point out flaws, and help me improve. There's no line where professional ends and mindless cocksucking begins.

It's awfully hypocritical to try and turn my argument around, too. Now you're yelling at me about people being free to post whatever they want, and that I'm judgemental about comments on my page? I was free to post that I think your tutorials are useless and that your idea is somewhat delusional, yet, heaven forbid, I'm being told that my lectures aren't welcome. If you want me to clarify my position on shit comments, here goes: People who post one-word comments irritate me because I would prefer to know what they truly think. I try to encourage people to speak with an open mind with no fear, but I won't (I never!) confront them about it. It's their choice to post short comments with no substance, they can do it if they want and so be it. But we're driving off-topic.

My problem comes down to this: You're basically just cupping your hands to your ears and going "lah lah lah" because you still haven't gotten out of your idealistic happy bubble where everything is going your way and your comic will exceed Sonic's popularity. I can't stand that, and I am trying to help you improve both your artwork and your attitude. With the way you've been behaving, I'd be surprised if any real professional takes you seriously.
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
...also make predictions/forecasts that suggests my downfall in the commercial art industry.

I'm experimenting - put it that way if it makes you happier.

Geez I'm really getting peeved about this crap I have to go through with you all the time. Satisfied to listen to me steam off a little for once? Good, I'm glad I did it. Have a nice day.
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
...also make predictions/forecasts that suggests my downfall in the commercial art industry.

I'm experimenting - put it that way if it makes you happier.

Geez I'm really getting peeved about this crap I have to go through with you all the time. Satisfied to listen to me steam off a little for once? Good, I'm glad I did it. Have a nice day.
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
To save time I'm just going to look into the final paragraph.

Ah if that's the problem then why do you want to correct me? I don't know how I'm getting in your way Veronica.

Why does it bother you if I continue to stay true to what I do? It's not like I'm doing this for my life savings.

I want to do this the way I like it. And it's perfectly normal to think that way. Selfish? Possibly. And if it is let it be.

I'm asking you nicely already to just let me be. I don't need someone to help me unless I ask for it - simple as that.

No matter how strong your advice may be sometimes it doesn't work that way in life. Don't care if the real pros don't take me seriously I'll just find another and try again - it's my life. Don't take try to dictate the way I do things okay and also make predication that suggest my downfall in the real industry. I'm experimenting - put it that way if it makes you happier.
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:icontaeshilh:
taeshilh Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Professional General Artist
No, read my whole post. I spent time writing it for your benefit.

But.. *Tilts head* I thought you were pursuing art as a living?

Anyway, if you read my post and you still feel the way you do as in the above post, man up and change this and your future works to critique discouraged. You're now speaking directly from the angle that you don't want serious critique done on your work, at least on DA, and I can tell you now that I don't disobey "critique discouraged" notices on deviations. (I just lose all potential respect for the artist and refuse to comment on them.)

So if you can do away with the pretension that you accept meaningful critique, I will gladly leave you to your devices and "let you be". You'll regret it later, though, because sooner or later you'll realise that in the real world, your 12 year old DA friends don't matter, but your wonky anatomy and derivative, two dimensional characters will. You can ignore me, I'm just one voice with a small potential role in your artistic development. But I think you'll find that if you shun the people that try and help you, you're essentially trading a pleasant temporary illusion for real lasting problems later. Not only with your artistic skill but with your general ability to participate in the creative industry.
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
No I won't read the whole post and neither this one thank you.
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:icontaeshilh:
taeshilh Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Professional General Artist
Look at my Darkspeeds impression!

*Cups hands to ears* Lah lah lah lah lah lah I am an internet celebrity lah lah lah lah~~~~
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:icondarkspeeds:
darkspeeds Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
Call it celebrity if you want, I'm just being who I am. I've always shown a great deal of respect within the Sonic/DA/TGAF community who may not have been getting the attention they truly deserve.

Your lack of maturity is seriously an eye-sore after knowing for what you've done in the past. You seriously dissapoint me buddy, heck you ain't worth it to be called 'buddy' in my book.

And dare I say about people being jealous of what I do or where I'm at - I think that is the case with you after your true colours have been revealed to me.

Again whether your are jealous or not doesn't matter to me. I kinda pity how I could have helped you IRL with stuff regarding about dealing with family, moving out, the economy in Australia, stuff like that. You are at an exciting phase of living with a family of your own... I'm always cool sharing tips and advice on how to get the best out of this awesome country but I reckon you should just... Just get lost man. Don't give a rats about your welfare anymore or your art.
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