Comment on Haiku Theory Part 1 -2009- by SOLARTS
Thanks Jade - much appreciated. It was quite a surprise and I have met a lot of interesting people through it.
However - in terms of your take on the trout haiku - the one you have written doesn't have the same potential in terms of unfolding. Your one, like the other two I quoted, only has one potential reading - the clouds are in the river bed and the trout leaps over them. Also - in the original the word 'under' or 'bottom' is used, not 'over' and I do try to keep a level of literalness to the translations. So, I am not sure what you mean by a 'finer' level of 'brevity'. Sometimes taking a poem too brief is not desirable, and this is one of those times for me. Not that I am saying you shouldn't have shared it with me - thankyou very much for doing so, but I do not agree that it is 'taking brevity to an even finer level'.
All the best.
However - in terms of your take on the trout haiku - the one you have written doesn't have the same potential in terms of unfolding. Your one, like the other two I quoted, only has one potential reading - the clouds are in the river bed and the trout leaps over them. Also - in the original the word 'under' or 'bottom' is used, not 'over' and I do try to keep a level of literalness to the translations. So, I am not sure what you mean by a 'finer' level of 'brevity'. Sometimes taking a poem too brief is not desirable, and this is one of those times for me. Not that I am saying you shouldn't have shared it with me - thankyou very much for doing so, but I do not agree that it is 'taking brevity to an even finer level'.
All the best.
"finer" referring to brevity - like a fine hair or line. I remember not long ago this would be a defining factor for you on the other side of the fence. Believe me, before I shared this option with you, I thought about it and whether it was too brief, and I think it still works. Why? Because it can be surmised that the trout would be leaping from water - that the water is reflective - that the water is outside and the clouds the fish leaps over are a reflection in the water that the trout has just leapt from.
Yes, it could be given more elaboration, but a couple of the examples given were overburdened as well. So a happy medium can be reached, but I find the example I have shared can work and shouldn't be dismissed.
And always the best to you also
Yes, it could be given more elaboration, but a couple of the examples given were overburdened as well. So a happy medium can be reached, but I find the example I have shared can work and shouldn't be dismissed.
And always the best to you also
I do consider it a defining factor, but mixed in with many other factors, especially with translations. In translating a poem I feel it is of importance to stick to the words contained in the original. As I said Onitsura uses the word "below/underneath/bottom" (which you change to its opposite "above") and the expression "flowing clouds" (rather than just clouds). That is why, for me, your translation doesn't work. There are two key problems with most translations I read - they either over edit the poem taking out words the poet actually said, or they over-elaborate and add a bunch of words in. I try not to do either.
That is why the translation doesn't work for me - it takes too many liberties with the poem. Obviously in translating there are always some liberties taken, but changing a word to its opposite and cutting a word which is essential to the meaning of the poem is not good translating to me. Sorry, but that is just how I feel.
I am not sure what you mean by calling the examples overburdened - I simply attempted to unfold what was already in the poem.
That is why the translation doesn't work for me - it takes too many liberties with the poem. Obviously in translating there are always some liberties taken, but changing a word to its opposite and cutting a word which is essential to the meaning of the poem is not good translating to me. Sorry, but that is just how I feel.
I am not sure what you mean by calling the examples overburdened - I simply attempted to unfold what was already in the poem.
I almost feel guilty for all the time you spent with your reply, but I'm glad you did because you reminded me of something I had overlooked...
this was from a translation
so please excuse my diving in head-first, and also know that I revise my thoughts on the whole matter and feel just fine -
thanks so much, Dick.
Come visit when you can - don't be a stranger.
this was from a translationso please excuse my diving in head-first, and also know that I revise my thoughts on the whole matter and feel just fine -
thanks so much, Dick.
Come visit when you can - don't be a stranger.
It's all good.