That can be arguable, if you work for example for Pixar and you create X character, the character is not yours even when you are the creator, Pixar is the owner because you are their employ and they are paying you to create that character. We may not be a big company as Pixar but we are also hiring you and freelancer employ artists.
So as commissioner I tell you, I HAD THE IDEA, not you, I am the one saying how the character should look, his personality, clothing and all… and am hiring you an paying you for creating MY character following MY VISION, you are already getting what you consider fair for your hard work, me on contrary am investing money.
So why the character should be yours?
And more you are saying you can profit more when I am the one with the idea and you were already paid, and I invested paying you what you asked and l get nothing for MY IDEA?
Imagine if an employ created a character for Pixar later he has the right to sell it to Dreamworks and the Japanese Anime companies….
I understand that as an artist you work very hard creating, I work very hard too to get money and my hard work is as respectful as yours.
At the end of the day you are very right in something, to avoid conflicts this should be discussed from the beginning.
I will warn you now: this is LONG. It has to be due to the amount of explanation needed to address your points. I hope I've made sense so it's not too much of a slog, though.
"That can be arguable..."
No, it really isn't. It's how copyright law works in the US.
"...if you work for example for Pixar and you create X character, the character is not yours even when you are the creator, Pixar is the owner because you are their employ and they are paying you to create that character."
They are also paying for the copyright to the material the employee has produced. It's figured into their salary. I'll explain that in more detail later, though.
"We may not be a big company as Pixar but we are also hiring you and freelancer employ artists."
And individual clients like you still have to pay for the copyrights to what the artist produces as part of the purchase price of the commission. US copyright law is the same for you as it is for Pixar.
"...you are already getting what you consider fair for your hard work, me on contrary am investing money."
And you are getting what is fair for the price you paid if you didn't pay for a copyright transfer. What most artists consider "fair" is retaining all of the rights that are legally ours as defined by basic visual copyright law. You are purchasing the service of having a custom piece of art created for you. The cost of owning the copyright to that custom piece of art is an additional cost.
"So why the character should be yours?"
You didn't understand what I said. If you commissioned me to create an illustration of your character "John Doe", I wouldn't own the copyright to John Doe. I would own the copyright to the specific image of John Doe that I drew for you. Those are two very different things. If you wanted to own the rights to that image of John Doe, you would pay for those rights.
"And more you are saying you can profit more when I am the one with the idea and you were already paid, and I invested paying you what you asked and l get nothing for MY IDEA?"
You may be the one with the idea, but I'm the one with the skill set to make something out of that idea. That's an important detail.
What I ask, as do ALL artists who know and understand US copyright, is for monetary compensation for the copyright/usage rights to the image I'm creating if the client wants them. That is defined in my Terms of Service and/or a basic letter of agreement before my pencil touches paper, so you would have already agreed to that before I produced the piece for you.
And, um... you don't get "nothing" for "YOUR IDEA". You get a custom piece of art for "YOUR IDEA", and that art has more value than what you seem to be giving it. Furthermore, it's a custom piece of art that you don't have the previously mentioned skill set to produce for yourself, which is why you hired me!
"Imagine if an employ created a character for Pixar later he has the right to sell it to Dreamworks and the Japanese Anime companies..."
Again, you don't really understand what you're taking about. That wouldn't happen, period.
Since you specifically said Pixar, let's use them here. One of my friends from college actually works for Pixar as a character animator. Her name is Cat.
Cat had to sign a contact of employment for Pixar before she started working for them. The contact stated that anything and everything she produces for Pixar belongs to Pixar, including ALL rights. The thing is, though? Pixar has pre-purchased those rights from her because it's included in her salary. Pixar has monetarily compensated her for giving up those rights, which is the whole point of what we're talking about here.
If you expect to receive the copyright to the specific image you commissioned from an artist, you will have paid for it within the price of the job. It's the same thing.
"I understand that as an artist you work very hard creating, I work very hard too to get money and my hard work is as respectful as yours."
Do you really, though? Do you know everything that goes into creating an illustration, how much work went in to having that ability to do so, and how back breaking that work was? I say that not as an insult or to be condescending, it's just most people think they know, but they really don't. From the way you've been talking about it, I think you're WAY underestimating it.
Now, that being said...
Respectful, yes. ALL honestly earned money is respectable. I'm not sure if that's the term you were meaning to use, though, because English probably isn't your first language since you say you're from Mexico. (My best friend of 15 years lives in Salamanca, Guanajuato even though that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
)My following answer is going to be assuming you mean "equal" not in respectability but rather the amount of work involved in commissioning an artist (again using myself as the hypothetical artist). THAT being said...
In the situation of commissioning an artist, no. The work contributed is not the same. Yes, you worked to earn the money to pay for it in some way or another, but that's irrelevant to what is happening when you hypothetically commission me for a custom piece of art.
What you are failing to notate here, as I already mentioned previously, is that YOU came to ME because I offer the service of creating something that you are incapable of doing for yourself. That right there tips the scale of work balance.
I have spent the last 18 years of my life working, practicing, studying, and devoting my life to my craft, and four of those years were in a hellishly hard core art school to hone my talent into a professional-level skill. That hard work has affected my physical health, too.
I have back and neck problems as well as permanent damage to my nerve system from all those years spent hunched over a desk, and those issues cause me pain and discomfort every day to the point of limiting how long I can work at a time. Those problems are so severe that they almost left me permanently disabled to the point of not being able to care for myself, even. ALL OF THAT goes into the creation of your custom piece of artwork.
You have brought the money and description of what it is you want to the table, yes, but I have brought the rest. It takes an enormous amount of work to do that.
"At the end of the day you are very right in something, to avoid conflicts this should be discussed from the beginning."
That's the whole point.
Straight up, US copyright law says that artists automatically own the copyright to the specific images they create, period. There's no debating that fact; it's the law. As such, the artist retains those rights unless the rights have been purchased and legally transferred to another person.
Unfortunately many amateur and hobby artists either don't know that or they aren't confident enough about what rights they have to stand up to a demanding or pushy client. Many times the client doesn't know the artist's legal rights, either, and are under the false impression that paying for the service means paying for the rights, which just isn't true.
And that's why those rights and the compensation for them always needs to be discussed with the client before pencil touches paper.
It isn't an issue of the artist being greedy. It's an issue of how US copyright law works.
I beg you pardon if I sounded too aggressive (never pretend to be rude) I had a hard week, and in part my mood was related with the topic (and you are right English is not my first language sorry if I am confusing).
You may see bellow my struggles with artists:
Add to those it that in Nov. I pre-paid a story, I just tried to contact him and it the person didn’t reply, the guy seems to start other projects and business model, he is in his right he is not my slave: he can start all the projects he will like but at least one of 2, or he finish his previews compormises or he gives back my pre-paid money, and it seems he doesn’t plan to do any of both… I consider the fairest thing to pay the half and half at the end, because as you see we also are taking big risks hiring I can count you like 4 times it had happened to me.
Now for the legal part there is something confusing (my fault). If I am not wrong THE IMAGE (drawing, illustration, whatever is yours…) but I was talking about the character that’s other thing, the character is mine; this hardly may happen since most of us rarely would take the time to register it; but I assume you may be able to re-sell it but technically part of the money you do should go to me or no?
Many of the commissions are fan art, rarely a corp. someone would take the annoyance to press charges. But if you do fan art of Mickey mouse or Darth Vader, if you are profiting technically you would have to pay royalties if they dare to go after you.
"At the end of the day you are very right in something, to avoid conflicts this should be discussed from the beginning."
I think we are ok with this part. You must say if you are selling the image and the rights too.
“Do you really, though? Do you know everything that goes into creating an illustration, how much work went in to having that ability to do so, and how back breaking that work was? I say that not as an insult or to be condescending, it's just most people think they know, but they really don't. From the way you've been talking about it, I think you're WAY underestimating it.”
That can be said from all jobs, all jobs are hard, some require skilled people, as a worker you are paid because you are covering certain need of a person or company. And I don’t underestimate the artists jobs, the point is that some their work is as worth as their money. I also work hard you don’t know if I am skilled or not or my background story, in the same way you work hard you don’t know how hard and stressing can be my job; perhaps I also invested a lot of time and studies for the money I am earning now, even being a janitor is a hard bad paid job…. All works are respectable.
Yes you are covering a skill I don’t have; but you are not doing me a favor I am giving you the money you think fair, and I am not giving charity either, I am receiving a skilled work from you… at the end of the day should be a fair interchange for both parts. Of someone think they are giving more than the received they should not do business anymore, everyone should be happy and no one should be doing a favor to anyone.
Now I perhaps your problem is that many costumers doesn’t respect your work and you are right to be annoyed with that. The problem is that the whole environment is unprofessional with few people like you professional:
I had contacted artists very professional, doing excellent jobs and trying the best to be professional and deliver something good, very concerned to do the commission as I want, I had constantly working with some of them since 3 years ago.
The problem AND YOU MAY SEE POSTS OF THIS IN THIS VERY THREAD, many of the artists are very skilled young teens; but finally they act very unprofessional:
-Many offer their hard work for 100 DA points!!! I don’t even dare to contact that people, they are not serious if they don’t respect their own hard work how do you expect to be respected by others? and that’s also bad to you because it lowers the price of the market in general and many clients will expect much more from you for less money.“why this guy wants 80 dollars when I saw someone asking me 5?”
-Besides like I mentioned bellow I often see many of them begging for money and a chance; they promise to work with all their soul and seem very interested… But when you try to contact them it seems they were just teens wanting to earn some money for the summer and closed, or is just their interest totally faded in the same way they were enthusiastic days before.
-As I have mentioned you they take the money but later they move to other projects leaving a paid job behind.
You see someone here saying that after being paid he “is not motivated…” do you think that’s professional?
And off course I assume many of the clients are spoiled teens too.
So the environment in general becomes very cheap and un professional; and that’s bad to you when you find clients used to move in that environment, and for me as client trying to find someone really professional and serious not making me waste my time.
And that can create problems for example because for bad experiences you may want to be covered 100% at the start, but I had bad experiences too so you would understand if I don’t want to pay you all before starting… that shouldn’t happen if everyone clients and artists would act serious and professional always…
I am grateful to you for taking the time of replying me, I think even when I am too much in ranting mode (sorry for that) that we agree mostly in everything
I think 50% /50 % is the fairest thing. However I always pay as the artist feel comfortable and I had related how often that doesn’t end good.
Again thinking in that guy that says he feels “not so motivated” after being paid makes me understand a lot of my bad experiences with many artists...
Now like I told I hire like 3 artist regularly and I have no problem waiting them, I know that even if they may delay finally they will deliver what they promised and I know their quality and the waiting will be worthy.
For the Copyrights stuff I had not much to say I recognize you seem more informed than me 
Perhaps my only question would be “adoptables” even in the forum seems to be confusion about what the heck they are? Some say it is a big scam and the artist is selling “air”. Others say the artists is selling the rights of the character; in such case if it is an OC from a commission… you know where I am going….
Good God that drives me up a WALL. 
The kids who offer to do commissions for so few points don't bother to think about how much dA points are actually WORTH monetarily, and you're absolutely right that it hurts other artists because it makes most people think that the dirt cheap prices are NORMAL.
The thing for me is, though, that most of the artists who are only asking like 100 dA points or five bucks for a full color illustration? I can truthfully tell the potential client, "You get what you pay for." It's very rare that the piece produced by a kid asking five bucks is going to be of the same skill level and professional quality of an artist who charges $100 for the same full color illustration. Furthermore, that professionalism will extend to the client's interaction with me, too.
It seems I told something you find annoying, but we agreed “you get what you pay for”, that’s why I commented I don’t find them serious and I don’t dare to contact them; if I see someone offering 100 DA points I should assume I will receive a 100 DA points quality; and that may not be truth.
Yep. And that, in a way, relates to the "You get what you pay for" statement. 
Yes and no, very often I pay even more to the artists for what they ask in their pages; many are more motivated and grateful and do a better work for me.
But for many others is just the same, they are irresponsible and unprofessional in one way or other.
You saw what I commented bellow that girl from Chile, she was and very talented; she delayed a damn good time so to make her work better I offered around 3 times her normal price! (honestly when she finally delivered the quality was very good)
Once she told me after some months that “she forgot” that I should “remind her” because she is very “forgetful”; and truly I hate to do that I am assuming that the artist is professional, and the work is done when is done I don’t like to rush and pest the artist I hire.
In a second occasion I waited months again, and she posted a commission for other person, I contacted that other person by PM, his work was even more complex than my project; yet she charged him much less, and he dared to complain the “long 4 days” he had to wait! As you assume I was like WTF?!!! What is going on here?
Besides you complain in other post of the guy wanting 50 for a tattoo, that happens when people are spoiled looking a cheap market; they don’t understand what you told me their think with other logic as you explained and never will udnerstand your point. And as someone that looks for good artists from time to time, is harder to find them because google/DA commission groups are flooded with those cheap artists and the real good ones are hidden among the other ones.
Being honest I had issues with people doing drawing, but right now I am not searching those I am happy and lucky with the people I have contacted, and for the things I commented you I try to treat them well. My issue now is with writers, I can tell you they are less, even pickier more expensive and unreliable than people doing drawings…
I'm sorry that's happened to you. I'd personally be leary of anybody who wants full payment up front with no letter of agreement or anything like that which legally binds them to actually DO what you paid them to do for you. Even in the industry it isn't cool to take full payment up front. There's always a deposit to get started, and then further payments are made beyond that, and final payment of whatever remaining balance is due when the final product is delivered. I personally do the 50%/50% start/finish for most jobs, although for individual clients like yourself if they have a reasonably pricey job with me I'll break it up into multiple payments... but that's all set up in writing at the start of everything before my pencil touches paper.
"I was talking about the character that’s other thing, the character is mine; this hardly may happen since most of us rarely would take the time to register it; but I assume you may be able to re-sell it but technically part of the money you do should go to me or no?"
What I was talking about in the original comment you replied to is the artist's copyright to the specific image, not the character itself. But no, part of the money wouldn't have to go to you if that wasn't negotiated at the time the image in question was created for you.
For individual commissions of OCs, though, it's not really the issue of re-selling the image so much as when the client thinks they have the right to tell the artist what they can and cannot do with the image. I had one lady who commissioned me for a rather entailed illustration of some OCs right after I graduated and didn't really know about asserting my rights, and after I finished the image and LOVED the way it came out, she told me that I wasn't ALLOWED to post it anywhere at all because they were her OC's and she paid me to make the image for her so it belonged to her, too. She took advantage of me.
So in the case of individual commissions of OCs, usually the claim of the artist retaining the rights to the image is talking more about USAGE rights of the artist, meaning they can post the image wherever they want, including for self-promotion. The re-selling of usage rights on an image is more about professional illustrations, particularly editorial illustrations and non-specific images.
"Many of the commissions are fan art, rarely a corp. someone would take the annoyance to press charges. But if you do fan art of Mickey mouse or Darth Vader, if you are profiting technically you would have to pay royalties if they dare to go after you."
Fanart is a bit of a legal gray area because technically fanart (if it isn't an exact copy or trace of an already licensed/copyrighted image of said characters) is considered a derivative work. If I'm not mistaken, a character can only be trademarked, NOT copyrighted. Specific images OF the character can be copyrighted, but not the character itself.
It's true that most companies don't bother to go after people who are selling fanart of their franchises, particularly at conventions. For most companies, they just consider it free advertising because the images are in such small quantities and only available for a short period of time to a limited audience.
Now, if you're printing thousands of copies of an image and selling it, you'll probably get a warning from the company to knock it off. Most don't even go so far as a formal "Cease and Desist" order because a simple verbal or written warning is enough to make the person stop whatever they're doing. It's VERY expensive for companies to take formal legal action and suing an independent artist, especially convention artists and such, because the artist doesn't have deep enough pockets to really pay anything in damages. It costs the company more money to actually SUE the person than what they'd win in return.
"-Many offer their hard work for 100 DA points!!! I don’t even dare to contact that people, they are not serious if they don’t respect their own hard work how do you expect to be respected by others? and that’s also bad to you because it lowers the price of the market in general and many clients will expect much more from you for less money.“why this guy wants 80 dollars when I saw someone asking me 5?”"
Good God that drives me up a WALL.
The kids who offer to do commissions for so few points don't bother to think about how much dA points are actually WORTH monetarily, and you're absolutely right that it hurts other artists because it makes most people think that the dirt cheap prices are NORMAL.
The thing for me is, though, that most of the artists who are only asking like 100 dA points or five bucks for a full color illustration? I can truthfully tell the potential client, "You get what you pay for." It's very rare that the piece produced by a kid asking five bucks is going to be of the same skill level and professional quality of an artist who charges $100 for the same full color illustration. Furthermore, that professionalism will extend to the client's interaction with me, too.
"You see someone here saying that after being paid he “is not motivated…” do you think that’s professional?"
Of course not. That's why a basic letter of agreement is always a good thing. It outlines what the client wants, what I am going to do for them, how much the client is going to pay for it (and when), and what rights are going to whom. When I make my clients (especially the individual clients like you) agree to a letter of agreement, I tell them that it's for their protection just as much as mine.
"And off course I assume many of the clients are spoiled teens too."
Yes, but the "I paid for the picture so it belongs to me!" mindset is common even in adults because not only do they not know anything about copyright law and basic artists' rights, they don't care. Adults are unfortunately just as capable of being entitled brats with extreme cases of USI (Unwarranted Self-Importance) as teenagers.
Clients like that make a letter of agreement (and Terms of Service) even MORE important for the artist. If you make them state that yes, I read those things, they can't claim ignorance later. Even if they didn't actually READ those things, they SAID they did. Too bad for them!
And really, in the case of individual client commissions, the artist isn't asking for anything extravagant when they say "I reserve the right to post this elsewhere and use it in my portfolio/for self-promotion. For my own individual clients I also include a clause in my ToS that states something like "If you want to post your image publicly online, I will supply you with a "Web Version" of the image that is watermarked with my information" in addition to the "I reserve the right to post this wherever I want to and if you object to that, you must buy me out of my copyright to the image".
"And that can create problems for example because for bad experiences you may want to be covered 100% at the start, but I had bad experiences too so you would understand if I don’t want to pay you all before starting… that shouldn’t happen if everyone clients and artists would act serious and professional always…"
Yep. And that, in a way, relates to the "You get what you pay for" statement.