No I am sorry I don't buy it, when I see Christianity all I see hate, opression and ignorance, so pardon me if I have a hard time believing what you say, Specially when I see things like the crusades, the inquisition, the complete erradication of preculumbian civilizations, when I see people in some villages in latin america murdering innocent animals because the think they are witches or demons, when I see them condeming homosexuality and abortion as sins no matter the circunstances, is this the entity that "saved" humanity after the fall of Rome?
Do all those things sound to you like a religion that did not sunk us into a dark age of ignorance and instead saved us from it?
Because to me it doesn't, I can believe the part where all the things we believe about the Middle Ages are misconceptions, but the part where you tell me that all that is thanks to such a hateful institution that has caused more damage to humanity than good? That part I can't buy and if you deny all the crimes I mentioned above and say they didn't happen then you better prove each and everyone of them well or you'll piss me off.
Do all those things sound to you like a religion that did not sunk us into a dark age of ignorance and instead saved us from it?
Because to me it doesn't, I can believe the part where all the things we believe about the Middle Ages are misconceptions, but the part where you tell me that all that is thanks to such a hateful institution that has caused more damage to humanity than good? That part I can't buy and if you deny all the crimes I mentioned above and say they didn't happen then you better prove each and everyone of them well or you'll piss me off.
No one made me so angry with their ingorance to make me log in to the account after two years. I am not a Christian, but I will speak in their name, as ardent atheists are even worse.
>Copernicus and Gallileo
Copernicus was a priest himself, and everyone, not only the church, shunned his theory at first, because it seemed illogical for them (well, logical thinking can be wrong when you don't have enough knowledge). Gallileo got into troubles for:
- own interpretation of Bible in order to prove his theory (that's heresy)
- saying that his discoveries overturned church dogmas.
- insulting Pope, because he asked Gallileo to include mention of Aristotelain model (the model supported by most of astronomicans back then)
Since Gallileo was inspired to heresy by Copernican theory, church went to conclusion that it should be banned, because, well, other people can be inspired to it.
Why is heresy such big deal?
You see, church is a shepherd of souls. Their mission is to lead people's souls to heaven by teaching them God's words, so they will live just as God told them, and then they will be granted eternal happiness in Heaven. And then some guy comes in, starts telling lies about God and people start to listen to him and maybe believe him. Now they are acting against God's will, and worse, they believe that they still act in God's will! They will go to hell and they'll spend rest of the eternity in torment for being bad guys, just because someone told them lies. And it's hard for them to spot diffrences between truth and lies, because they didn't spend half of their lives trying to actually understand Bible, they had more interesting stuff to do, like learning their future trade. So it is moral duty of the church to spot those lies and eliminate them before they destroy anyone's life.
Ascendance of Martin Luther and Protestantism made Catholic Church see that they have to double their efforts. Say, create an organization that will seek heretics and get rid of them, either by making them reject their own ideas, or by killing them. They would investigate cases of suspected heresy. Inquire them.
Inquistion.
Now, Inquisiton was bad, but they were the guys who formed basis of modern courts and police. They carefully investigated cases and using evidences they found, put the accused on the trial. They created a concept of presumption of innocence and were often more civilized than secular courts, to the point that sometimesa people accused of .
>Witchcraft
Ah, yes, another good old tried argument. Witchcraft and all sorts of superstitions existed through all the time and still exist, just check if there's any fairy in your area, or if you have an horoscope in your newspaper. Witch hunts are also quite old, dating up to ancient Egypt. Church was bent on fighting with such superstitions, because they treated it as bullshit. As such, early Christianity prohibited witch hunts (council in Paderborn - 785, council in Frankfurt - 794, Lomabrdian codex - 643, Hungary in 1100, Pope Gregory VIII in his letter to king of Denmark in 1080, Bishop of Worms in about 1020). Witch hunts and witch trials were almost always civil cases and had some fucked up methods used in them. They came back in Late Medieval and especially in Renaissance - especially when in 1473 a book was published - "Malleus Meleficarum" Hammer on Witches, written by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, St. Dominicus monks. They asked local bishops for support of their book, and hwen all of them refused, they went to the Pope himself - Innocent VIII, who gave a bull about it. However, worth noting is the fact that he is the guy that caused Protestant Schism in Christianity by introducing sale of indulgencies. Later in 1490, Malleus Meleficarum was banned by him, but printing press made by Gutenberg allowed the book to spread fast. However, Inquistion often disregarded the book as bullshit, so mostly it was mobs of angry people who used it. Quite often witch hunts weren't a matter of religion - it was just a way to fuck up someone and get his stuff when something bad happens to them. As such, "witches" often happened to be outcasts, who had no friends or support and it was easy to get rid of them, as either no one cared about them or everyone hatted them.
>muh Crusades
In a moment when conflict between Pope and Holy Roman Emperor went silent, Pope decided to do something to gain power, say, gain new lands and renome. In the meanwhile, Muslims started to expand north and Greeks had trouble containing them. Worse, caliph of Jerusalem destroyed church of Lord's Grave in 1009 and in 1079 sultan Suleiman forbid Christian pilgrims to enter Jerusalem. Crusade was reaction to this things. The only exception was Fourth Crusade, when Venetians decided to deal with Byzantine Empire, which was their competitor in dominance over Mediterran Sea.
Of course, crusaders committed atrocities during war. But, as Tywin Lannister said, "give man a spear in his hands, and you'll turn him into a monster"
>Copernicus and Gallileo
Copernicus was a priest himself, and everyone, not only the church, shunned his theory at first, because it seemed illogical for them (well, logical thinking can be wrong when you don't have enough knowledge). Gallileo got into troubles for:
- own interpretation of Bible in order to prove his theory (that's heresy)
- saying that his discoveries overturned church dogmas.
- insulting Pope, because he asked Gallileo to include mention of Aristotelain model (the model supported by most of astronomicans back then)
Since Gallileo was inspired to heresy by Copernican theory, church went to conclusion that it should be banned, because, well, other people can be inspired to it.
Why is heresy such big deal?
You see, church is a shepherd of souls. Their mission is to lead people's souls to heaven by teaching them God's words, so they will live just as God told them, and then they will be granted eternal happiness in Heaven. And then some guy comes in, starts telling lies about God and people start to listen to him and maybe believe him. Now they are acting against God's will, and worse, they believe that they still act in God's will! They will go to hell and they'll spend rest of the eternity in torment for being bad guys, just because someone told them lies. And it's hard for them to spot diffrences between truth and lies, because they didn't spend half of their lives trying to actually understand Bible, they had more interesting stuff to do, like learning their future trade. So it is moral duty of the church to spot those lies and eliminate them before they destroy anyone's life.
Ascendance of Martin Luther and Protestantism made Catholic Church see that they have to double their efforts. Say, create an organization that will seek heretics and get rid of them, either by making them reject their own ideas, or by killing them. They would investigate cases of suspected heresy. Inquire them.
Inquistion.
Now, Inquisiton was bad, but they were the guys who formed basis of modern courts and police. They carefully investigated cases and using evidences they found, put the accused on the trial. They created a concept of presumption of innocence and were often more civilized than secular courts, to the point that sometimesa people accused of .
>Witchcraft
Ah, yes, another good old tried argument. Witchcraft and all sorts of superstitions existed through all the time and still exist, just check if there's any fairy in your area, or if you have an horoscope in your newspaper. Witch hunts are also quite old, dating up to ancient Egypt. Church was bent on fighting with such superstitions, because they treated it as bullshit. As such, early Christianity prohibited witch hunts (council in Paderborn - 785, council in Frankfurt - 794, Lomabrdian codex - 643, Hungary in 1100, Pope Gregory VIII in his letter to king of Denmark in 1080, Bishop of Worms in about 1020). Witch hunts and witch trials were almost always civil cases and had some fucked up methods used in them. They came back in Late Medieval and especially in Renaissance - especially when in 1473 a book was published - "Malleus Meleficarum" Hammer on Witches, written by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, St. Dominicus monks. They asked local bishops for support of their book, and hwen all of them refused, they went to the Pope himself - Innocent VIII, who gave a bull about it. However, worth noting is the fact that he is the guy that caused Protestant Schism in Christianity by introducing sale of indulgencies. Later in 1490, Malleus Meleficarum was banned by him, but printing press made by Gutenberg allowed the book to spread fast. However, Inquistion often disregarded the book as bullshit, so mostly it was mobs of angry people who used it. Quite often witch hunts weren't a matter of religion - it was just a way to fuck up someone and get his stuff when something bad happens to them. As such, "witches" often happened to be outcasts, who had no friends or support and it was easy to get rid of them, as either no one cared about them or everyone hatted them.
>muh Crusades
In a moment when conflict between Pope and Holy Roman Emperor went silent, Pope decided to do something to gain power, say, gain new lands and renome. In the meanwhile, Muslims started to expand north and Greeks had trouble containing them. Worse, caliph of Jerusalem destroyed church of Lord's Grave in 1009 and in 1079 sultan Suleiman forbid Christian pilgrims to enter Jerusalem. Crusade was reaction to this things. The only exception was Fourth Crusade, when Venetians decided to deal with Byzantine Empire, which was their competitor in dominance over Mediterran Sea.
Of course, crusaders committed atrocities during war. But, as Tywin Lannister said, "give man a spear in his hands, and you'll turn him into a monster"
Why are you replying to a comment I made three years ago? I don't even remember what this conversation was exactly about, even reading it again.
If you're so offended by me saying those thigns about christianity, I can assure you I already know all the things you're telling me, I had three years to learn it, don't you think it's unfair to get angry at views and arguments that I might not even hold up now? I am much more amigable to christianity than I was back then, reading the Quran opens your eyes and makes you say "You know....Christiniay is not THAT bad, it could be much worst, it could be this".
I still think christiniaty is incompatible with the world of World Witches Series, if you have any arguments against this notion, I'd like to hear it...it'd be futile thought as Brave Witches pretty much confirmed Abrahamic Religions do not exist in the series.
If you're so offended by me saying those thigns about christianity, I can assure you I already know all the things you're telling me, I had three years to learn it, don't you think it's unfair to get angry at views and arguments that I might not even hold up now? I am much more amigable to christianity than I was back then, reading the Quran opens your eyes and makes you say "You know....Christiniay is not THAT bad, it could be much worst, it could be this".
I still think christiniaty is incompatible with the world of World Witches Series, if you have any arguments against this notion, I'd like to hear it...it'd be futile thought as Brave Witches pretty much confirmed Abrahamic Religions do not exist in the series.
Consider that the scientific progress in the Modern Age had its basis in the 1000 years you called "wasted".
The conservation of classical knowledge (especially Aristotelic) was essential just like the institution of universities and these two things were made possible thanks by that "hate institution".
Consider also that the first formulation of a scientific method (observation, hypothesis, experimentation) was made in the XIII century by Roger Bacon, a medieval scholar and a franciscan friar who is considered one of the founders of modern science.
The answer to your question is simply: yes, it helped to save us from a dark age of ignorance and this is the same answer historians give (with many more details than me).
Is it hard to believe? It's terribly hard to believe it, because this huge misconception about middle age is carried over and over along with many others.
And, sincerely, there's no intention to deny those crimes you write of, only to reconsider their impact on human history but I think this is not the appropriate site to discuss about it.
The conservation of classical knowledge (especially Aristotelic) was essential just like the institution of universities and these two things were made possible thanks by that "hate institution".
Consider also that the first formulation of a scientific method (observation, hypothesis, experimentation) was made in the XIII century by Roger Bacon, a medieval scholar and a franciscan friar who is considered one of the founders of modern science.
The answer to your question is simply: yes, it helped to save us from a dark age of ignorance and this is the same answer historians give (with many more details than me).
Is it hard to believe? It's terribly hard to believe it, because this huge misconception about middle age is carried over and over along with many others.
And, sincerely, there's no intention to deny those crimes you write of, only to reconsider their impact on human history but I think this is not the appropriate site to discuss about it.
You know what's the sad thing, I can actually believe what you say, I would love to believe what you say...here is the problem.
1) You're still refusing to accept the horrible side of the church, but putting my words into quotations you're saying to me that you don't believe me, also that last sentence "Those Crimes I speak Of" in a tone that sounds as if you think I am just making shit up, I hope I am misinterpreting your words, but that's what it sounds like.
2) Are you telling me that the church was totally cool with science? You're telling me that if the theory of evolution, telescopes that can see beyond our solar system, the laws of physics, clonation, abortion, sex change, mental disseases, processes to extend lifespan and eventually achieve immortality, discovering that there is an explanation for everything and it isn't all demons, The atoms, the theories about the origins and eventual destiny of the universe...are you telling me that if ALL of that had been discovered in the Middle Ages, the Church would be OK with it unlike now that they denounce of all these things as going against the laws of God? There is no consistency there.
3) It is the destiny of science to prove everything in the Bible wrong, are you telling me the Church would allow knowledge that can destroy THE BOOK ITS ENTIRE RELIGION IS BASED ON to pass?
Well if that's the case then Church has only been getting shittier with time...
That is the problem I have with believing everything you're telling me, The Horrible organization I see today couldn't have possibly come from such an utopia of peace and love you're trying to tell me, it goes against everything the Bible says, they would have to go against the Bible for that society to exist.
You're just like every Christian I've met, they love to say the Church is the salvation of humanity, but when faced with the bad things the church has done, you deny it and try to brush it off as myths and lies or flat out deny it ever happened.
THAT IS the main reason I can't accept your argument.
If you were to tell me "I know it's REALLY hard to believe with all the things the Church has done, I am not denying that, I accept the Church has done horrible things across time, maybe things have changed since then, but please believe me, there was a time the Church wasn't the monster you see today, somewhere in the way they got corrupted, please don't judge it on the actions of a bunch of idiots who want to spread hatred and ignorance on humanity".
If you were honest about it, I would believe you because I would say "Wow...a Christian who doesn't deny the Shit in the Church and actually condems it? Wow I am sold
" but because you aren't, you're just like everyone else, be different from everyone else and I promise I'll accept what you tell me.
1) You're still refusing to accept the horrible side of the church, but putting my words into quotations you're saying to me that you don't believe me, also that last sentence "Those Crimes I speak Of" in a tone that sounds as if you think I am just making shit up, I hope I am misinterpreting your words, but that's what it sounds like.
2) Are you telling me that the church was totally cool with science? You're telling me that if the theory of evolution, telescopes that can see beyond our solar system, the laws of physics, clonation, abortion, sex change, mental disseases, processes to extend lifespan and eventually achieve immortality, discovering that there is an explanation for everything and it isn't all demons, The atoms, the theories about the origins and eventual destiny of the universe...are you telling me that if ALL of that had been discovered in the Middle Ages, the Church would be OK with it unlike now that they denounce of all these things as going against the laws of God? There is no consistency there.
3) It is the destiny of science to prove everything in the Bible wrong, are you telling me the Church would allow knowledge that can destroy THE BOOK ITS ENTIRE RELIGION IS BASED ON to pass?
Well if that's the case then Church has only been getting shittier with time...
That is the problem I have with believing everything you're telling me, The Horrible organization I see today couldn't have possibly come from such an utopia of peace and love you're trying to tell me, it goes against everything the Bible says, they would have to go against the Bible for that society to exist.
You're just like every Christian I've met, they love to say the Church is the salvation of humanity, but when faced with the bad things the church has done, you deny it and try to brush it off as myths and lies or flat out deny it ever happened.
THAT IS the main reason I can't accept your argument.
If you were to tell me "I know it's REALLY hard to believe with all the things the Church has done, I am not denying that, I accept the Church has done horrible things across time, maybe things have changed since then, but please believe me, there was a time the Church wasn't the monster you see today, somewhere in the way they got corrupted, please don't judge it on the actions of a bunch of idiots who want to spread hatred and ignorance on humanity".
If you were honest about it, I would believe you because I would say "Wow...a Christian who doesn't deny the Shit in the Church and actually condems it? Wow I am sold
" but because you aren't, you're just like everyone else, be different from everyone else and I promise I'll accept what you tell me.