This is a pretty interesting listen. The showing up part is exactly right. I definitely catch myself sliding while waiting for "inspiration", like, all the time.
I don't know if I agree that you shouldn't act on inspiration. Getting something down is pretty important for me so I have something to build off of when I hunker down to draw again. It almost seems at odds with the comments about embracing mistakes. I thought I wasn't supposed to be afraid of mistakes? So why would I be afraid to put down my awesome inspiration?
I do like the idea of mistakes being part of a map. Mapping out an idea, including all the right and wrong turns, gives you more valuable information that can be applied to the next idea.
The compliments versus criticism part is pretty obvious but I have learned from how people react to my art that it's a pretty messy situation. I tend to strive for validation. I used to think the more people who like my art the more successful that piece was. Looking at how some of my most successful pieces are some of my lower art, I get conflicted on what's worth the time. A massive multi-month painting no one cares about or a simple sexy piece of fan art? What's better? I guess I'll just try to do both and see if I can manage it time-wise.
I've also had criticism that's just so unhelpfully wrong it makes me angry. I used to ask for critiques all the time but the more popular I got the more negative and spiteful some of them became.
I had one person imply my mistakes were because of sexism or something and I should consider peoples feelings before I draw naked women, you know, because my art and DA as a whole are sexist, her words. This person also said I like to see women contorted in pain and I get off to it because of anatomy errors in one piece. The problem in that situation was I was being judged by the critic, not just my art and it's hard to not fight back, especially since it's part of a much larger cultural fight.
Useful criticism can be hard to come by in this era of sensitivity to the representation of women in art. Lots of misinformed people tearing art down thinking they're helping fight discrimination.
I tend to look at compliments as encouragement to keep trying and criticism as how to keep learning. Feedback as a whole is a good feeling. Whether people like or hate my art, it's still feedback so I know people are paying attention.
I don't know if I agree that you shouldn't act on inspiration. Getting something down is pretty important for me so I have something to build off of when I hunker down to draw again. It almost seems at odds with the comments about embracing mistakes. I thought I wasn't supposed to be afraid of mistakes? So why would I be afraid to put down my awesome inspiration?
I do like the idea of mistakes being part of a map. Mapping out an idea, including all the right and wrong turns, gives you more valuable information that can be applied to the next idea.
The compliments versus criticism part is pretty obvious but I have learned from how people react to my art that it's a pretty messy situation. I tend to strive for validation. I used to think the more people who like my art the more successful that piece was. Looking at how some of my most successful pieces are some of my lower art, I get conflicted on what's worth the time. A massive multi-month painting no one cares about or a simple sexy piece of fan art? What's better? I guess I'll just try to do both and see if I can manage it time-wise.
I've also had criticism that's just so unhelpfully wrong it makes me angry. I used to ask for critiques all the time but the more popular I got the more negative and spiteful some of them became.
I had one person imply my mistakes were because of sexism or something and I should consider peoples feelings before I draw naked women, you know, because my art and DA as a whole are sexist, her words. This person also said I like to see women contorted in pain and I get off to it because of anatomy errors in one piece. The problem in that situation was I was being judged by the critic, not just my art and it's hard to not fight back, especially since it's part of a much larger cultural fight.
Useful criticism can be hard to come by in this era of sensitivity to the representation of women in art. Lots of misinformed people tearing art down thinking they're helping fight discrimination.
I tend to look at compliments as encouragement to keep trying and criticism as how to keep learning. Feedback as a whole is a good feeling. Whether people like or hate my art, it's still feedback so I know people are paying attention.
Sorry for butting my not-half-as-eloquent head in here, but this exchange was so interesting I had to check your gallery, and see what was up. Yes, there are a lot of naked (cat)girls. I can see how that might disturb someone, especially here on DA, which tends to have a "ewww, nudity!" segment of the population. (I've seen art tamer than yours censored... or the nude version held for ransom on Patreon.) [Cash Register Sound] But I'd say you put genuine art in your artistic nudity, interesting color palettes, creative composition, backgrounds. Some of the poses (mainly the earlier work down at the bottom of the gallery) seemed "off" to my not-artist's eye, if I had to point a finger it would be at weight distribution, maybe? (I'm no expert!) "This person also said I like to see women contorted in pain and I get off to it because of anatomy errors in one piece" seems to me an "epic burn" - in the style of"Yo Momma so fat..." jokes, a "Yo art so bad..." joke? Not to be taken seriously.
I'm used to the usual "your art sucks, nudity is bad" comments. I got so many of those on my Undertale art, including a few "you need to die" gems! The holocaust came up recently in a comment too. I've even had to contact DA directly about banning a person who created multiple accounts to trash me week after week. I guess it shows people are paying attention to my art!
While I'm well aware of my anatomy issues and am (slowly) improving the person in question who commented on the sexism stuff was not a joke like that. I really shouldn't have responded to the person once I looked at their gallery and saw this "sexism bingo card" linked here: DA Sexism Bingo
While I think it's worth discussing I just truly don't agree with how this person goes about it. My main gripe being how they had a definition of sexism that was quite broad and I don't think they considered how many people would disagree with it, couple that with the condescending tone of the bingo card and I think we can guess why there is so much fighting on the internet.
I guess the issue here was obvious, I like a certain type of sexy fan service art. They considered it sexist and there for flawed, read over the bingo card to see what I mean. They're not going to understand why I like the type of art I do. I mean, you can't force your art opinions on to others. It's art. Anyway, it lead to a lengthy discussion that rapidly became hostile. You can read it here if you want, it's pretty entertaining! Maybe...
comments.deviantart.com/1/6217…
To be clear, the anatomy problems really stemmed from repeatedly reworking to pose, it was one of the harder commissions I've done due to the commissioner wanting me to undo things pretty often. The pose is pretty questionable, I just don't think it's as broken as it was made out to be. I've only had two people point it out out of all the sites I've posted it on.
I know I will be a lot smarter about how I have these conversations in the future. I'm sure you can see from just glancing at the journal on my page I do converse on weighty issues like this. Fighting gets us nowhere, I'll be picking my battles better.
While I'm well aware of my anatomy issues and am (slowly) improving the person in question who commented on the sexism stuff was not a joke like that. I really shouldn't have responded to the person once I looked at their gallery and saw this "sexism bingo card" linked here: DA Sexism Bingo
While I think it's worth discussing I just truly don't agree with how this person goes about it. My main gripe being how they had a definition of sexism that was quite broad and I don't think they considered how many people would disagree with it, couple that with the condescending tone of the bingo card and I think we can guess why there is so much fighting on the internet.
I guess the issue here was obvious, I like a certain type of sexy fan service art. They considered it sexist and there for flawed, read over the bingo card to see what I mean. They're not going to understand why I like the type of art I do. I mean, you can't force your art opinions on to others. It's art. Anyway, it lead to a lengthy discussion that rapidly became hostile. You can read it here if you want, it's pretty entertaining! Maybe...
comments.deviantart.com/1/6217…
To be clear, the anatomy problems really stemmed from repeatedly reworking to pose, it was one of the harder commissions I've done due to the commissioner wanting me to undo things pretty often. The pose is pretty questionable, I just don't think it's as broken as it was made out to be. I've only had two people point it out out of all the sites I've posted it on.
I know I will be a lot smarter about how I have these conversations in the future. I'm sure you can see from just glancing at the journal on my page I do converse on weighty issues like this. Fighting gets us nowhere, I'll be picking my battles better.
Huh. That was less dumb and hostile than I imagined... actually all parties were reasonably polite! (I've seen much worse in terms of flamewars... in cesspools of websites That Must Not Be Named.) ...if throwing in excessive links to tumblr and other causes in that way modern liberals tend to (example: LGBTQAI+) though that is a whole other can of worms. Focus, people!
My take on that Sexism Bingo is the person seems to have a very particular set of things they'd like to see in art. That's not a problem - go commission someone your idea of a female character, I say! The problem is not thinking of it as "their thing" and seeing this highly specific checklist as The Universal Truth. Assuming ALL art must therefore cater to their tastes. (actually quite a wide problem in entertainment and reactions to it nowadays...)
And no patience for the thought that this particularly awful pose might be the end result of a Commission From Hell - theoatmeal.com/comics/design_h…
My take on that Sexism Bingo is the person seems to have a very particular set of things they'd like to see in art. That's not a problem - go commission someone your idea of a female character, I say! The problem is not thinking of it as "their thing" and seeing this highly specific checklist as The Universal Truth. Assuming ALL art must therefore cater to their tastes. (actually quite a wide problem in entertainment and reactions to it nowadays...)
And no patience for the thought that this particularly awful pose might be the end result of a Commission From Hell - theoatmeal.com/comics/design_h…
I guess it's polite by internet standards as in we didn't just scream insults at each other and get banned. That's classic internet debate!
I just have a low tolerance for the pushy kind of progressives because I've been beat around by them for about 5 years now. I tried talking about representation of women in games back in 2012 and it was frustrating.
One of the first people I talked to told me all art is objectification because it's an object you look at. Like, the canvas a woman is painted on is an object designed for the viewer to leer at. Women in art are, therefore, objectified in a literal sense and it's offensive. It's pretty sad if that's the education you're getting. She did make a big deal about her gender studies degree, IIRC.
Like what you like but don't try to ruin what you don't. I can't believe this is even a real, multi-year debate, if being called sexist over and over can be called debate. Not everyone is like that but the loudest tend to be and they get the coverage, unfortunately.
That comic is surprisingly accurate for a few commissions I've had. I came real close to quitting one and refunding the person just to make it stop. The worst is not telling me a massive part of the commission until it was way too late to do. I'm surprised they didn't think I needed all the information before I started.
I just have a low tolerance for the pushy kind of progressives because I've been beat around by them for about 5 years now. I tried talking about representation of women in games back in 2012 and it was frustrating.
One of the first people I talked to told me all art is objectification because it's an object you look at. Like, the canvas a woman is painted on is an object designed for the viewer to leer at. Women in art are, therefore, objectified in a literal sense and it's offensive. It's pretty sad if that's the education you're getting. She did make a big deal about her gender studies degree, IIRC.
Like what you like but don't try to ruin what you don't. I can't believe this is even a real, multi-year debate, if being called sexist over and over can be called debate. Not everyone is like that but the loudest tend to be and they get the coverage, unfortunately.
That comic is surprisingly accurate for a few commissions I've had. I came real close to quitting one and refunding the person just to make it stop. The worst is not telling me a massive part of the commission until it was way too late to do. I'm surprised they didn't think I needed all the information before I started.
>>>I've also had criticism that's just so unhelpfully wrong it makes me angry. I used to ask for critiques all the time but the more popular I got the more negative and spiteful some of them became.
Eeeeeeyyup. I think once you get to a certain level of popularity, some bitter, jealous assholes who have no self-esteem because they haven't accomplished anything with their lives just want to take you down a peg to make themselves feel better. I get those every once in a while. My favorite are the bitchy little whiners who are mad because I won't paint what they want me to. Ugh.
I don't have a problem with critique at all but the point of actual critique is supposed to be to help the artist grow, not as an excuse to act like a nincompoop.
>>>I had one person imply my mistakes were because of sexism or something and I should consider peoples feelings before I draw naked women, you know, because my art and DA as a whole are sexist, her words. This person also said I like to see women contorted in pain and I get off to it because of anatomy errors in one piece. The problem in that situation was
Oh lordy... I looked through your gallery, did not see any sexism. I think that person is just being hypersensitive or maybe even misdirecting her frustrations at you. Even if you did like to see women contorted in pain, I wouldn't necessarily call that sexist. Some people are into that. As long as it's/you're not harming any actual women, I have 0 problems with it. But it just sounds to me like she's lashing out at you because she's hypersensitive.
>>>I was being judged by the critic, not just my art and it's hard to not fight back, especially since it's part of a much larger cultural fight.
I think I know what you mean. I hate that everything has devolved into a NO U battle or a tug of war. It's obnoxious. It's frustrating that people on different sides of these arguments won't listen to each other or acknowledge that both sides have legitimate complaints and not-so-legitimate complaints. I wonder if it's really always been this way and it's only being made more apparent by the presence of social media.
>>>Useful criticism can be hard to come by in this era of sensitivity to the representation of women in art. Lots of misinformed people tearing art down thinking they're helping fight discrimination.
Indeed. Really what they're doing is making things worse. Mind you, I am a feminist through and through but more importantly, I am an egalitarian which necessarily means I'm also a men's rights activist. So I get shit on from all sides of this battle. What both sides fail to see is that many of their behaviors are very self-destructive towards their causes. For example, if I, as a woman, want to explain to a man some aspect of what it's like to be a woman that may not be readily apparent to him, what's the best way to go about that?
(a) Be indignant and condescending.
(b) Assume he wouldn't be able to understand because he's a man.
(c) Yell angrily and treat him as if he is personally to blame for every bad thing any man has ever done to a woman.
(d) Calmly and without using accusatory language, explain the situation in a way the man may be able to empathize with.
A lot of women immediately go for a, b, and c then wonder why the men react defensively. A perfect example is something I like to call "the privilege bat." What is privilege? It's a real thing. It exists. Most people have some kind of privilege, yes, even women. All it means is that some people have advantages. Now, if I wanted to explain the concept to someone who did not understand it, there are basically two ways I can go about it- I can calmly and neutrally explain what privilege is without being accusatory and without demeaning his accomplishments, suffering, and hard work or I can come swinging at him with the Privilege Bat, accuse him of being an ignorant, privileged asshole who has never suffered and had everything handed to him on a silver platter because he's a white cis-het male shitlord. Too many people use the latter method of argument and it doesn't work. All it does is ensure the person you're attacking will only ever see you as the bad guy and will never give your argument earplay.
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough on this topic. I could go for pages and pages. XD As you can tell, it's a topic I feel very passionately about.
TL;DR: There's no damn sexism in your gallery. You're fine.
((Forgive me for any typos. I'm having a really hard time seeing today and even zooming in isn't helping much.))
Eeeeeeyyup. I think once you get to a certain level of popularity, some bitter, jealous assholes who have no self-esteem because they haven't accomplished anything with their lives just want to take you down a peg to make themselves feel better. I get those every once in a while. My favorite are the bitchy little whiners who are mad because I won't paint what they want me to. Ugh.
I don't have a problem with critique at all but the point of actual critique is supposed to be to help the artist grow, not as an excuse to act like a nincompoop.
>>>I had one person imply my mistakes were because of sexism or something and I should consider peoples feelings before I draw naked women, you know, because my art and DA as a whole are sexist, her words. This person also said I like to see women contorted in pain and I get off to it because of anatomy errors in one piece. The problem in that situation was
Oh lordy... I looked through your gallery, did not see any sexism. I think that person is just being hypersensitive or maybe even misdirecting her frustrations at you. Even if you did like to see women contorted in pain, I wouldn't necessarily call that sexist. Some people are into that. As long as it's/you're not harming any actual women, I have 0 problems with it. But it just sounds to me like she's lashing out at you because she's hypersensitive.
>>>I was being judged by the critic, not just my art and it's hard to not fight back, especially since it's part of a much larger cultural fight.
I think I know what you mean. I hate that everything has devolved into a NO U battle or a tug of war. It's obnoxious. It's frustrating that people on different sides of these arguments won't listen to each other or acknowledge that both sides have legitimate complaints and not-so-legitimate complaints. I wonder if it's really always been this way and it's only being made more apparent by the presence of social media.
>>>Useful criticism can be hard to come by in this era of sensitivity to the representation of women in art. Lots of misinformed people tearing art down thinking they're helping fight discrimination.
Indeed. Really what they're doing is making things worse. Mind you, I am a feminist through and through but more importantly, I am an egalitarian which necessarily means I'm also a men's rights activist. So I get shit on from all sides of this battle. What both sides fail to see is that many of their behaviors are very self-destructive towards their causes. For example, if I, as a woman, want to explain to a man some aspect of what it's like to be a woman that may not be readily apparent to him, what's the best way to go about that?
(a) Be indignant and condescending.
(b) Assume he wouldn't be able to understand because he's a man.
(c) Yell angrily and treat him as if he is personally to blame for every bad thing any man has ever done to a woman.
(d) Calmly and without using accusatory language, explain the situation in a way the man may be able to empathize with.
A lot of women immediately go for a, b, and c then wonder why the men react defensively. A perfect example is something I like to call "the privilege bat." What is privilege? It's a real thing. It exists. Most people have some kind of privilege, yes, even women. All it means is that some people have advantages. Now, if I wanted to explain the concept to someone who did not understand it, there are basically two ways I can go about it- I can calmly and neutrally explain what privilege is without being accusatory and without demeaning his accomplishments, suffering, and hard work or I can come swinging at him with the Privilege Bat, accuse him of being an ignorant, privileged asshole who has never suffered and had everything handed to him on a silver platter because he's a white cis-het male shitlord. Too many people use the latter method of argument and it doesn't work. All it does is ensure the person you're attacking will only ever see you as the bad guy and will never give your argument earplay.
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough on this topic. I could go for pages and pages. XD As you can tell, it's a topic I feel very passionately about.
TL;DR: There's no damn sexism in your gallery. You're fine.
((Forgive me for any typos. I'm having a really hard time seeing today and even zooming in isn't helping much.))
My biggest issue was gaining popularity from one type of fan art. Criticism of fan art is a little trickier in my opinion. I've had a few points where people weren't separating their feelings on the subject matter from my art. It sucks because it's a character they don't like or it sucks because it doesn't do justice to a character they like. Those can still be fun conversations though.
As for the sexism stuff, I really agree with the the part about how both sides tend not to listen and understand the legitimate views of each side. Video games are just insane on this. I don't read gaming news sites too often now due to how big of an issue the feminism fight has become.
I'm all for discussing art. More representation for women? Yes please! I always play as a woman in games, if given the chance. Always!
I just don't think it anyone should be trying to morally police art, especially if it's because of ulterior motives and not natural critique of a subject or medium. Again, look at games for a good example. There's lots of "games are sexist" article from people who clearly don't play games. The worst part is how disagreeing with them gets you labelled a misogynist or something. It seems to be the M. O. of a certain side of progressive politics. Where are all the other voices in these discussions? I rarely see counterpoints being made.
I posted a summary of what happened with the person who wrote about taking pleasure from women contorted in pain in a reply above this one. That should explain why it sticks out to me still, it wasn't a one or two comment exchange, it was long and stupid, just how the internet likes it!
Anyway, the whole privilege thing gets out of hand quickly, too. I always thought of it being like a cudgel used to bludgeon people for asking questions. A bat might make more sense as it seems some people literally wield them at places like Ever Green State College when these issues arise. Bats are probably easier to acquire than cudgels.
White privilege is the most common bat bludgeon topic I see. There's a ton of stupid topics used to silence those who disagree, though. How did this get so out of hand? I mean, ideas like the "progressive stack" should not be making past the drawing board. At least it led to this humorous comic. Silver linings!
imgur.com/QQQ0Org
As for the sexism stuff, I really agree with the the part about how both sides tend not to listen and understand the legitimate views of each side. Video games are just insane on this. I don't read gaming news sites too often now due to how big of an issue the feminism fight has become.
I'm all for discussing art. More representation for women? Yes please! I always play as a woman in games, if given the chance. Always!
I just don't think it anyone should be trying to morally police art, especially if it's because of ulterior motives and not natural critique of a subject or medium. Again, look at games for a good example. There's lots of "games are sexist" article from people who clearly don't play games. The worst part is how disagreeing with them gets you labelled a misogynist or something. It seems to be the M. O. of a certain side of progressive politics. Where are all the other voices in these discussions? I rarely see counterpoints being made.
I posted a summary of what happened with the person who wrote about taking pleasure from women contorted in pain in a reply above this one. That should explain why it sticks out to me still, it wasn't a one or two comment exchange, it was long and stupid, just how the internet likes it!
Anyway, the whole privilege thing gets out of hand quickly, too. I always thought of it being like a cudgel used to bludgeon people for asking questions. A bat might make more sense as it seems some people literally wield them at places like Ever Green State College when these issues arise. Bats are probably easier to acquire than cudgels.
White privilege is the most common bat bludgeon topic I see. There's a ton of stupid topics used to silence those who disagree, though. How did this get so out of hand? I mean, ideas like the "progressive stack" should not be making past the drawing board. At least it led to this humorous comic. Silver linings!
imgur.com/QQQ0Org
I am thoroughly, unapologetically, without hesitation, a proud progressive very liberal libertarian. I'm not going to let the fact that there are idiots in my ranks deter me from what I believe. But goddamn do these idiots make us look bad. All I can say is that we're not all like that. we're not all a bunch of Anita Sarkeezians.
As to women in games, I get where both sides are coming from. I don't want to see games policed into a PC stalemate either. I believe game devs should have the creative freedom to do as they please. At the same time, the industry still struggles in regards to portraying female characters, though, many excellent strides have been made recently that, personally, I find very pleasing (Horizon Zero Dawn being a great example). At the end of the day, I'm not against scantily clad big-tittied nymphs in games but I am very much in favor of more variety of female characters.
As to women in games, I get where both sides are coming from. I don't want to see games policed into a PC stalemate either. I believe game devs should have the creative freedom to do as they please. At the same time, the industry still struggles in regards to portraying female characters, though, many excellent strides have been made recently that, personally, I find very pleasing (Horizon Zero Dawn being a great example). At the end of the day, I'm not against scantily clad big-tittied nymphs in games but I am very much in favor of more variety of female characters.
I'm a pretty damn progressive liberal myself, lived most of my life in California (with a little stint in Mexico) and have had family that worked in magazines in San Fransisco. You don't get more progressive than San Francisco! I almost always fall on the liberal side of issues, including women rights, gay marriage and all that. I voted for legalizing gay marriage in 2008 when it came up in CA. I constantly talk about wanting women in games, more variety being the goal. I stand up for games like Gone Home when they get bashed, same with Horizon. I tell people to calm it down with the feminist bashing on forums.
Even with all of that I'm still treated like trash when I talk to certain types of people on the progressive side. It's never good enough seems to be the problem. I need to agree 100% of the time or else I'm a whiny, loser male who can't understand how much harm I'm doing by existing. Asking questions and trying to engage in debate can now be harassment, somehow. I think more respected people (people in the press) need to step up and start countering these rather extreme views. It really needs debate to be healthy.
My real beef with these stances stem from the belief that the art on DA, in games, comics or whatever, really hurt people. The world can only be at peace if we forcibly beat people into accepting one narrow view of far left politics. I often see rape brought up. Statistics on spousal abuse and molestation. Am I supposed to believe that violence in games doesn't affect people but scantily clad women does?
By going down that road we end up here where nothing is good enough. Uncharted Lost Legacy? The guardian took issue with one of the woman being half white. Horizon: Zero Dawn? Offensive to native Americans. Dishonored 2 got criticized for having a male playable character, it apparently should only have women. I have a hard time seeing how we'll achieve greater diversity by pushing to lessen white people and men in games.
Why is it so hard to believe that people might want both strong independent women and sexy half-naked women? I want more sexy half-naked men in my games, too! Give me sexy furry art and I'll be just as happy to draw porn of them! Hmm, I wonder how these same people react to the sexual male furry art? Anyway, we need to branch out and have more sexuality in games, not less by shaming it. It kind of goes against human nature, you know?
Even with all of that I'm still treated like trash when I talk to certain types of people on the progressive side. It's never good enough seems to be the problem. I need to agree 100% of the time or else I'm a whiny, loser male who can't understand how much harm I'm doing by existing. Asking questions and trying to engage in debate can now be harassment, somehow. I think more respected people (people in the press) need to step up and start countering these rather extreme views. It really needs debate to be healthy.
My real beef with these stances stem from the belief that the art on DA, in games, comics or whatever, really hurt people. The world can only be at peace if we forcibly beat people into accepting one narrow view of far left politics. I often see rape brought up. Statistics on spousal abuse and molestation. Am I supposed to believe that violence in games doesn't affect people but scantily clad women does?
By going down that road we end up here where nothing is good enough. Uncharted Lost Legacy? The guardian took issue with one of the woman being half white. Horizon: Zero Dawn? Offensive to native Americans. Dishonored 2 got criticized for having a male playable character, it apparently should only have women. I have a hard time seeing how we'll achieve greater diversity by pushing to lessen white people and men in games.
Why is it so hard to believe that people might want both strong independent women and sexy half-naked women? I want more sexy half-naked men in my games, too! Give me sexy furry art and I'll be just as happy to draw porn of them! Hmm, I wonder how these same people react to the sexual male furry art? Anyway, we need to branch out and have more sexuality in games, not less by shaming it. It kind of goes against human nature, you know?
I couldn't agree more.